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#11508186 - 10/16/16 NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS"
RickBin Offline


Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 9511
Loc: Los Angeles, California
I want to thank Wayne van Zwoll for his latest exclusive Campfire article. Please welcome him aboard if you have not done so already.

Please use this thread to ask Wayne van Zwoll (WvZ) questions about "SUB.27: WHERE THE ACTION IS"

Thanks Wayne, and enjoy, folks.
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24hourcampfire.com

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#11549866 - 11/02/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 4882
Loc: Lancaster county PA
I think the .25 Souper and the 6.5-06 could have been a success had Remington or Winchester put their name on them. Am I wrong? Are they just too close to the .243 and .270 for a market to exist?
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A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him. -Aldo Leopold

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#11550316 - 11/02/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
IndyCA35 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 4431
Loc:
I kind of wonder why nobody ever commercialized other rounds in the popular .277 caliber, like a .270/.308. Or a .270 magnum instead of a 7mm magnum. Other than the one Weatherby offering, that is.
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“Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work” Thomas Edison

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#11550371 - 11/02/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
beretzs Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/05/11
Posts: 2231
Loc: Northern Va
Great article. Was a great read.
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Semper Fi

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#11553116 - 11/03/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
DakotaDeer Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 18216
I would like to see a write-up concerning all the options in 6mm. That is the current and next frontier, as soon as the 6.5 Creedmoor fades a bit.

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#11553720 - 11/04/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
Bugger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/17/14
Posts: 2442
Loc: South Dakota
The 25-06 and the 6mm Remington - two of my favorites. I see a 6mm-06 in the future though.
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#11554056 - 11/04/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: IndyCA35]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41105
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Indy,

You mean like the .270 WSM?
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11555237 - 11/04/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
260Remguy Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 20844
Loc: NE
Why do you think that the 256 Newton has never been as popular as its performance suggests that it should have been? The 256 Newton is my favorite long action .264" bore cartridge.

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#11556229 - 11/05/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: Mule Deer]
IndyCA35 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 4431
Loc:
Originally Posted By Mule Deer
Indy,

You mean like the .270 WSM?


Oops. Forgot that one. It only took 'em 75 yeqrs or so and the WSM doesn't seem very popular.

I guess my real question should have been why did everyone go all goo goo ga ga over the 7mm and later the 6.5mm when the .270 was already proven.
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“Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work” Thomas Edison

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#11556310 - 11/05/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: IndyCA35]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 4882
Loc: Lancaster county PA
One could also ask why did we need the .270 when the 6.5 and 7mm's were already proven?
_________________________
A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him. -Aldo Leopold

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#11556418 - 11/05/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: IndyCA35]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41105
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Indy,

Because 6.5mm and 7mm originated as military calibers back in the early days of smokeless powder, when all military bullets were long, heavy roundnoses, apparently because all previous lead bullets for black powder military cartridges were long, heavy roundnoses. As a result, relatively fast twists became standard in 6.5 and 7mm, which also turned out to work fine to stabilize long, streamlined spitzers when they started appearing.

The .270 Winchester appeared after the transition to spitzers, when high muzzle velocity became the obsession among hunters. Many companies, however, found that faster twists resulted in poor accuracy. Early spitzers were often poorly balanced, and faster twists accentuated the poor balance.

As a result, companies introducing new, high velocity hunting cartridges often used relatively slow twists that would JUST stabilize lighter bullets. A classic example is the .250-3000 with its 1-14 twist, but the .270 was also one.

It's standard 1-10 twist is considerably slower than the twists normally used in 6.5 and 7mm calibers on either side of .270. Which is why heavier 6.5mm and 7mm spitzers have higher BC's than .270 bullets: Their standard twists can handle longer, more streamlined spitzers.

Consequently, when the long-range hunting trend started after the introduction of laser rangefinders, hunters "discovered" what target shooters had known for decades: 6.5mm and 7mm bullets were available with higher BC's than .270 bullets, and hence worked better at longer ranges.

Yeah, you can put faster twists in .270-caliber rifles, and there are a few high-BC .270 bullets designed to work in them. But why bother after decades of 6.5mm and 7mm twists and bullets providing better long-range performance?

Yes, the .270 was already "proven." It was proven to result in less retained velocity and more wind-drift at longer ranges than 6.5mm and 7mm bullets--which were not a new fad. They had been proven for even longer.

Not everyone went "all goo goo ga ga over the 7mm and later the 6.5mm", just hunters who were ignorant of their long-range advantages, which target shooters had known about for a LONG time. Which is exactly why .270 caliber never became popular among target shooters.

_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11556454 - 11/05/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
gerrygoat Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 2613
Loc: B.C.
Nice article and welcome to this forum. I have enjoyed reading your articles over the years.


In this house we have a 260 Rem, 6.5x55 and 264 WM so are big fans of the smaller rounds. I know it isn't a "sub 27" but the 270 Win has really become a favourite in the last two years since I started finally using one, I wonder why it took so long. I also would like to try a 270 Wby one day too when my 264 barrel is toast.
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Gerry.

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#11556479 - 11/05/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: Mule Deer]
gerrygoat Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 2613
Loc: B.C.
Originally Posted By Mule Deer


Yeah, you can put faster twists in .270-caliber rifles, and there are a few high-BC .270 bullets designed to work in them. But why bother after decades of 6.5mm and 7mm twists and bullets providing better long-range performance?



Speaking only for myself the reason why I went for a fast twist 270 was I finally realised the 270 Win is a great cartridge in its own right after years of ignoring it. I also wanted to have at least one round around here that I could find cheap factory ammo at Canadian Tire if necessary. The fast twist part does mean I can experiment with pretty much any bullet currently made which is quite enjoyable for me. This 270 Win is largely replacing my 264 WM (which I like) and works just as good so far after chronographing loads.
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Gerry.

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#11556616 - 11/05/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: gerrygoat]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41105
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Yep, easily finding a wide selection factory ammo and brass is the big advantage of the .270 over most 7mm cartridges, especially the newer ones.

Also, some of the newer, high-BC .270 bullets will indeed stabilize in a 1-10 twist, at least under most environmental conditions.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11561666 - 11/07/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
RinB Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 1799
John,
Several years ago Brian Litz wrote an article about SCALING. The obvious conclusion is that .277 is just about perfect for LR performance.
Bring on the 1-9 twists.
Of course there is the fact that 270 Win ammo can be found everywhere big game is hunted. It is one of a handful of worldwide hunting cartridges.
Can't find 6.5-06 or 280 AI anywhere I go. Can find 7x57 / 275 RIGBY. Now that is a tempting choice.


Edited by RinB (11/07/16)

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#11561689 - 11/07/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
RinB Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 1799
John,
Regarding the 275 RIGBY aka 7x57, with optimal powders and best brass, with modern pressure limits, can you get 140's to 2900 in a 22" barrel? I am assuming the throat is cut so those 140's have about .275" of bullet shank touching the inside of the case neck.

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#11561875 - 11/07/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RinB]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 35900
It wasn't until I started posting here that I realized I wasn't supposed to have killed anything that I had been killing for 30+ years with a 270.

All those dead animals....down the drain.

oh well.... frown
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The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.

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#11562027 - 11/07/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RinB]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41105
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Rick,

Yeah, you can get 2900 pretty easily with 140's in a 22" barrel. Of course, might not with some bullets that produce more pressure than others. But three that result in pressure at the lower end are the 139 Hornady Interlock, 140 Ballistic Tip and 140 TTSX, all of which work very well.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11562166 - 11/07/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: BobinNH]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 4882
Loc: Lancaster county PA
Originally Posted By BobinNH
It wasn't until I started posting here that I realized I wasn't supposed to have killed anything that I had been killing for 30+ years with a 270.

All those dead animals....down the drain.

oh well.... frown


I knew that long before I ever got a .270 or joined the 'Fire. Many times as a kid I remember hearing my dad tell people "the .270 is a groundhog gun". So I knew it was crap. Then I grew up and bought one and realized it's one of the best big game cartridges there is. I do imagine you could take some groundhogs with it too. laugh
_________________________
A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him. -Aldo Leopold

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#11590202 - 11/16/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
GuyM Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 4726
Loc: Washington - dry side
Heck of an interesting, well-written article.

Thanks Wayne, looking forward to more.

Regards, Guy

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#11601081 - 11/21/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
StrayHorse Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/08
Posts: 154
Loc: Overgaard, Arizona
Welcome Wayne. It sure is nice to have your view here. I like the way you see things.

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#11614235 - 11/27/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: RickBin]
bonefish Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 891
Loc: TN
If the 6.5-284 Norma is "overbore", and potentially a 1000 rd. "barrel burner", what would we consider a 26 Nosler or a 6.5/300 Weatherby? I understand the utility of the "overbore" 7mm's for hunting but not the 6.5's. A 28 Nosler, 7mm Dakota, 7mmRUM, etc. can send a 180gn plus VLD bullet a 1000 yards with enough energy to reliably kill an elk. Just because a 140gn 6.5mm gets there at the same speed is it anywhere near as terminally effective? I am guessing that the "super overbore" 6.5's are the flattest shooting long range cartridges, but what niche do they fill?

I greatly enjoyed the article. It is a real treat to have detailed articles written by Wayne and John on this site.


Edited by bonefish (11/27/16)

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#11620545 - 11/29/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: bonefish]
ChipM Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 2447
Loc: Southern New England
Great article as always from WVZ. Enjoyed reading his articles and books in the past and looking forward to future articles

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#11664239 - 12/16/16 Re: NOVEMBER - Ask Wayne van Zwoll Questions About "SUB.-27: WHERE THE ACTION IS" [Re: moosemike]
WvZ Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 39
I suspect cleverly branded, well-marketed cartridges will always earn a few shekels. But while the Souper and 6.5/06 are among my favorite wildcats, there's nothing wrong with the .243 and .270. The .25-06 spans the gap ably, if for some unfathomable reason, you must limit yourself to one rifle. Speculating, I see marginal support for the Souper and 6.5/06, had they gone commercial after 1955, for the reason you point out.... WvZ

Originally Posted By moosemike
I think the .25 Souper and the 6.5-06 could have been a success had Remington or Winchester put their name on them. Am I wrong? Are they just too close to the .243 and .270 for a market to exist?

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