Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters It finally happened to me - Remington Safety Issue

I simply didn't think to say....
I RE sealed the adjustment screws on every one adjusted.

Jerry

I have yet to meet an AK guide that agrees with you...

And?

One difference... You can get yours to repeat. The experts in the court cases could not get the malfunction to repeat, casting doubt on their allegations..

Ooops, read your second post.. The trigger being monkeyed with, you cannot blame Remington..

Buy a Timmney.

G

$150.00 will fix the problem, Timney trigger. Myself,would never feel comfortable with the factory trigger again. Even though someone screwed it up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS!



How hard is it to figure out? If you aren't comfortable with a Remington Trigger, replace it!

Again, that one aint Remington's fault.

Extremesolo,

Often a hunting rifle trigger that has been adjusted to have very little creep will not have a problem in the warmth of your home. However as soon as you apply cold ( the outdoors) it can effect your trigger because metal does slightly shrink in the cold and a little shrinkage is enouph. For this reason I always leave a little creep in a hunting rifle trigger. Best of luck and glad nobody was injured.


Trystan

Jewell, Trigger Tech or Timney. I would not trust the safety even if re-worked by a competent gunsmith. The older models were easy to adjust, the newer ones seem to have softer metal that is not as reliable. No experience with the Xmark types.

JEWELL!
I currently have two 700's and will not be buying another. The trigger issue in concert with failures of the extractor to work properly and the plunger ejector fouling with brass shavings easily makes the choice easy.
The only reason I am keeping the two I have is they have some sentimental value. One was my dad's 375 he used extensively in Africa and the other started out as a 700 classic in 7mm weatherby that I used on a Dall and caribou hunt I went on with my dad.

From an engineer's perspective I agree with this. 99.999% of the time is just not good enough when it comes to triggers. The old Walker design with the floating connector is simply one to many parts for 100% reliability, especially if someone has monkey'ed with it like you mentioned.

I experienced this first-hand with a friend's 700 in 280rem. Loved the gun and caliber until a cold morning when the grease/oil/whatever he had built up within the trigger caused the connector to hang. Released the safety and "CLICK" on an empty chamber. I could NEVER trust it after that.

I would either send it to Remington to get an X-Mark trigger installed (different internal design vs. old Walker style) or get a Timney. I am a big fan of the Timney.

I don't have a dog in this fight, other than I hate to see any company, particularly a shooting sports company, railroaded in court. I do not own any Remington bolt action rifles with the triggers in question. I haven't formed any real opinion one way or the other, there's too much hyperbole on both sides for me to truly make what I feel is an informed opinion.

Now then, Remington's "favorite" expert witness, Jack Belk, has weighed in on the new X-mark trigger as well. Sorry for the long post, I can only find a pdf of it and couldn't link to it.

Seems to me that Mr. Belk is more interested in destroying Remington while enriching himself in the process than fixing the problem though. Here's his deposition on it in yet another lawsuit against Remington:


JACK BELK GUNWORKS
PO Box 123 Oakley, Idaho 83346 (775) 397-4339
jbelk09gmail.com

September 28,2015

Supplemental report of H. J. (Jack) Belk, Jr.

Clerk of Court
Charles Evans Whittaker Courthouse
Attn: Clerk’s Office
400 East 9th Street
Kansas City, MO 64106

Angeion Group
Attn: Remington Claims
Suite 660, 1801 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19103

Re: Pollard v. Remington Arms Co., LLC, et al., Case No. 4:13-cv-00086-ODS

May it please the Court, in my continuing avocation and vocation of gun examination and repair, six X Mark Pro triggers were obtained from Terry Miller Gun Repair in Twin Falls, Idaho.

These triggers were removed from customer's rifles so that aftermarket triggers could be installed. These triggers were retained by Mr. Miller at my request. Mr. Miller advised he did not have a record of which guns had these triggers originally installed, but they were all taken
from Remington Model 700 rifles.

All six triggers appear to be factory sealed using three different sealants either alone or in combination. All six triggers carry different markings on their housings. There are three different markings on the sears and three variations of triggers. Three triggers have two trigger return springs and three triggers have one return spring.

The “F” Trigger
One of the six triggers is unique in that it has a stamped letter "F" near the lower left corner of the right side of the assembly housing. The F Trigger as I call it is of the single return spring type with a bright finished safety lever showing signs of camo paint at the distal end. The F Trigger also displays a bright red safety block. This appears to be thick paint. This paint was applied to the safety block after assembly of the trigger but no effort was made at sealing or locking the important safety locking block adjusting screw with the paint. The safety block adjusting screw and the other two screws of the assembly were instead locked and sealed with what appears to be LocTite 422/422MS. It is purple in color and appears to have wicking capabilities that makes it a low strength thread locker that is applied after assembly.

All three adjustment screws appear to have this factory applied purple sealant.

The F Trigger is defective, dangerous, and totally unpredictable in performance due to the inoperable nature of the trigger return spring. The trigger in the F Trigger assembly has no spring tension at all, but the sealed adjustment screw head appears to be in the correct position for proper trigger return spring tension. There is a trigger return spring present in the assembly and it can be seen by microscope through the safety block hole, but it is in no way active. There is no effect whatsoever by the spring on the trigger, and the F Trigger is of the single spring configuration and so the trigger has no alternative method for insuring proper relocation under the sear.

It was initially assumed that the trigger return spring of the F Trigger is locked in place by excess thread sealant, but there is a question of how the spring can be locked in the fully compressed position when the trigger should have some over-travel motion spring return even at the 'at rest
and fired' position.

The fact there is no spring return over the entire motion of the trigger indicates some kind of mechanical interference that makes the spring inoperable. Further investigation is needed to identify this heretofore unknown defect in the X Mark Pro trigger.

The F Trigger is different in the trigger pivot pin, also. The F Trigger has no provision for a 'locker ring' to be placed on the trigger pivot pin. It is assumed the locker groove was implemented later in the production cycle and utilizes a longer pivot pin with a retaining groove for the lock ring, but this particular one doesn't have it.

The most notable and critically important difference in the F Trigger can only be seen when the trigger is dismounted from the gun and the sear removed. It was observed before sear removal that the active sear surface, where it contacts the cocking stud, is well worn and is showing delaminations of the plating from many cocking and firing repetitions. The wear present in that place was more than is usually encountered on a Remington sear, so I expected to find broken, chipped, and worn internal trigger parts from the considerable amount of firing. What was found instead is a totally different finish applied to the MIM trigger that shows hardly any wear at all. The top of the trigger and the bottom of the sear have a surface finish different and distinct from other XMP triggers previously examined.

Based on my extensive experience with over-ride triggers of all makes and models, and my testing of XMP triggers associated with this case in particular, the F Trigger is unique by having first an inoperable trigger return spring and secondly a distinct difference in wear patterns between sear and trigger. The difference in wear patterns could be due to a metallurgical failure as evidenced by excessive wear to the top of the sear, or it could be due to a great metallurgical success in the treatment given of the top of the trigger as evidenced by a lack of wear there.

ANALYSIS AND OPINION
The F Trigger, is in my opinion, a very early XMP specimen and probably falls within the previous 'recall' effort by Remington. But the fault found in the F Trigger is totally different than publicized in that effort of 2014. This trigger is in a 'failed condition' at room temperature. The safety lever is in no way involved in the failure. The F Trigger also exhibits wear capabilities far beyond what has been seen previously and seems to have far superior materials within it, the inoperable trigger return spring not withstanding.

“Excess sealant” is certainly present in the F trigger and all the XMP triggers examined. Sealant or adhesive could be the primary causation of the F Trigger failure, but the fact that there is any sealant at all inside the trigger assembly shows a defect in design and workmanship. Early Walker triggers and some later Walker triggers sent to foreign countries were sealed by 'staking' the adjustment screws. No previous Remington triggers have had thread lockers applied, only a simple 'cover' sealant that showed any disturbance of the adjustment screws. As clearly shown by Remington's own efforts at repair, thread lockers and sealants should not be present in trigger mechanisms and is certainly counter to the instruction manual's warnings and demands to keep the trigger clean.

Taken in their entirety as a cross-section of XMP triggers taken out of service by a small town gunsmith, the six Miller triggers represent a dangerous condition not unlike the already known to be defective Walker triggers and re-enforces the opinions gathered from previously examined XMP triggers by this investigator.

Conclusion
The X Mark Pro trigger is not only ill suited as a replacement for the Walker, many of them represent a continuing hazard to the public who are still unaware of the dangerous conditions that exist within it.

____________________________

If you hunt with an AK guide here your chamber will be cold until he instructs you to fill it... simple fact.

Ahem!! I was agreeing with you. (Does that mean you don't agree with yourself? ) The guides I know agree with ME!

Who's on first?

Nearly one year since this Alaska Hunter Safety Instructor lost the battle with a

hot chamber....

Are hot chambers only frowned at when used by hunters?

Concealed carry, LEO, home defense arms carried or stored unloaded?

I don't see much difference.

If one were to hunt in our thick terrain, he would be lucky to see a deer, let alone see, load, and kill it. You may sit on the road and catch one crossing and get a shot if deer is walking and you are quick to load... But sitting on the road and hunting is illegal.

g

I didn't see, how old is this 3 year old rifle?

I"ve got a passle of rems... and I like to think at one point we shot more than most folks in a year.

I've never had an issue and one of them is an older one... 81 IIRC, and I've tuned it down to under a pound and its burned up 2 barrels so far... no issues.


As to all the comments about glad no one was hurt, yes, I agree, but there is no way in HELL that anyone should have ever been in any danger if it was handled correctly.

Guns are mechanical, the ONLY reliable safety is the user, triggers are mechanical and can or will fail eventually through enough cycles...

Hmm, I've never not been able to chamber a round as I raised the gun...and I'm a bit challenged in the coordination department most days....

Hunting in Alaska is much, much different. I grew up hunting in the east, always had a hot chamber and a safety I could some what rely on (not a 700). When I started hunting in Alaska during my residence there, I heeded the advice of those more experienced than me and only carried rounds in the magazine. I continued that practice for ten years and enforced it upon friends and family I hunted with. No one ever had a mishap, and good thing as help is usually too far away to make a difference. You simply dont jump shoot animals in Alaska, its mostly a pure spot and stalk. I never felt hindered by not carrying a chambered round. Now that I am back east and "big game" ala deer are hunted much the same as cottontails, carrying an empty chamber would be akin to throwing a speer...

When in Rome do what the Romans do...perspective and locale is relative.

Absolutely! !

Deer DON'T like clanking metal sounds at close range.


Jerry