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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
How does a 308 kill elk better?


because there are more $.02's, IMO's and more comfortables out there.

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Looks like ima go with 308. Thanks for the info guys. I would like to add a 6.5x55 or 6.5creed in the future tho

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I think the answer to this question is the 7mm-08.....


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The .308 has some advantage in terminal ballistics over the 6.5 just like the 6.5 has an advantage over the .22-250.

Last edited by longbarrel; 11/28/16.

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Lol....chit



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Stick with the 308. I find that you can find ammo for it anywhere which is important to me. Its popular, not that much recoil and basically is a "do anything" type round. If Elk is in your future then for sure the 308.

I have a 308 savage and i will say that the recoil is pretty mild. I also have a 7mm-08 in a different model and the recoil is NASTY.

i would say 7mm-08 would be a good choice too, but from my experience the recoil is almost the same with the 308 having a bit more in size for bigger game.

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.308 it is. Like i said tho i would like a creedmoor or a swede maybe for my next rifle but for my needs right now i thinj the 308 is the ticket

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Hard to go wrong with a 308 Winchester!

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Killindeer: I have seen Moose killed with a 308 Winchester!
Personally, I have killed 3 types of Deer, Elk, Antelope, Mt. Goat and Black Bear with my 308 Winchester Rifles.
I have not shot, nor seen any game killed with the 6.5 Creedmore but tend to want to give the versatility and lethality advantage to the 308 Winchester.
Best of luck to you with whichever you choose.
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I'd rather talk rifles than cartridges any day, but in essence the .17 Rem and the 30-06 Springfield are more alike than they are different.

FWIW, I absolutely love the .308 cartridge, and have .308s in 2 different rifles.

But for a hunting cartridge I do believe that most guys are best served with a rifle chambered to a modern cartridge in .24, .25, or .26 caliber.

Aint' much a guy couldn't do with a sporter or light weight rifle made up in stainless/synth., and shooting a good 6.5 bullet.

My personal choice for decades was the .243 Winchester. Had a 25-06 built and it was a sweet shooting killing machine. Just this year i came home with a .260 Rem, and it's likely found it's forever home.


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Originally Posted by johnw
I'd rather talk rifles than cartridges any day, but in essence the .17 Rem and the 30-06 Springfield are more alike than they are different.

FWIW, I absolutely love the .308 cartridge, and have .308s in 2 different rifles.

But for a hunting cartridge I do believe that most guys are best served with a rifle chambered to a modern cartridge in .24, .25, or .26 caliber.

Aint' much a guy couldn't do with a sporter or light weight rifle made up in stainless/synth., and shooting a good 6.5 bullet.

My personal choice for decades was the .243 Winchester. Had a 25-06 built and it was a sweet shooting killing machine. Just this year i came home with a .260 Rem, and it's likely found it's forever home.



I do own a 243, a 700 i picked up not long ago. Havent taken game with it yet but used to shoot an old Browning lever action when i first started hunting and killed quite a few deer with it. I really like the caliber. I kept saying last year i was gonna get a 6.5x55 but never did. Handled the new Bergara rifles and must own one. I guess its likely gonna be 308 but gonna research the 6.5creed some more

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Originally Posted by alaska_lanche


IDK, not sure it makes a difference too much, but an elk shot in the exact same place with both calibers one is going to start out making a 35% larger hole right out of the gate and thus possible make a larger hole in the lungs to bleed it out faster?

Thats about the only reason one might argue that I suppose.



Expanding bullets (save Berger VLD's) start expanding immediately upon contact and are generally fully expanded within the first two inches. With that- there is no difference due to being .308 versus .264.






Originally Posted by alaska_lanche


I think both are great options, but up here in Alaska I am partial to the .308 over the .260 I have. The 180s going 2700 fps or 140s doing 2800 likely isn't much difference other than a bit more mass with the .308.

If you plan to shoot a ways out there then the 6.5 is better, but I don't shoot much past 400 yards so the .308 does just fine for me even for grizzlies and brown bears I have seen shot with the .308.

Would a 140 grainer from a 6.5 do the same? Likely so, but I prefer the .308. I am sure you could argue that the the 6.5 is better in every aspect right?



No, not better in every aspect. They are so similar terminally with good bullets that it isn't worth talking about. No one looking at a dead animal would be able to tell whether it was shot with a 243, 6.5/260, 7/08, 308, 30/06, etc, using bullets optimized for each.



The reality is that if they all have similar terminal ballistics, and they do, why wouldn't someone choose the one with less recoil, less wind drift, and better factory ammo for lower cost?

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I pretty much just hunt deer and hogs down here, and I can't say there's a bad pick between the .308win and the Creedmoor. If hunting locations where shot opportunities typically exceed 300yds, I reach for my 6.5x47L. It shoots pretty dang flat, is easy on the shoulder, drifts little in the wind, and is easy to hit with. It's enjoyable to shoot. If hunting where most shots are 300yds or less, I often carry a .308win. With most good cup/core bullets, I get a bit more on-game performance regarding knock-downs and good blood trails, as compared to my Lapua or my 260Rem. It is one of the most boringly reliable and effective medium-game calibers out there, often impressively so, but there is more recoil. And then there's the 7mm-08, which for me has yielded excellent results on game, with a little more recoil than the 6.5mm offerings.

I guess it would boil down to what I wanted the rifle for and the conditions in which I planned to employ it. If I planned to shoot it a lot, and shoot it long, I'd go 6.5mm.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by alaska_lanche


IDK, not sure it makes a difference too much, but an elk shot in the exact same place with both calibers one is going to start out making a 35% larger hole right out of the gate and thus possible make a larger hole in the lungs to bleed it out faster?

Thats about the only reason one might argue that I suppose.



Expanding bullets (save Berger VLD's) start expanding immediately upon contact and are generally fully expanded within the first two inches. With that- there is no difference due to being .308 versus .264.






Originally Posted by alaska_lanche


I think both are great options, but up here in Alaska I am partial to the .308 over the .260 I have. The 180s going 2700 fps or 140s doing 2800 likely isn't much difference other than a bit more mass with the .308.

If you plan to shoot a ways out there then the 6.5 is better, but I don't shoot much past 400 yards so the .308 does just fine for me even for grizzlies and brown bears I have seen shot with the .308.

Would a 140 grainer from a 6.5 do the same? Likely so, but I prefer the .308. I am sure you could argue that the the 6.5 is better in every aspect right?



No, not better in every aspect. They are so similar terminally with good bullets that it isn't worth talking about. No one looking at a dead animal would be able to tell whether it was shot with a 243, 6.5/260, 7/08, 308, 30/06, etc, using bullets optimized for each.



The reality is that if they all have similar terminal ballistics, and they do, why wouldn't someone choose the one with less recoil, less wind drift, and better factory ammo for lower cost?


So they both expand to the same size?? Huh I didn't know that...why not go with a 243 or 22-250 for even less recoil.


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Originally Posted by alaska_lanche

So they both expand to the same size??


Huh I didn't know that...




That's not how bullets work, but yes, their expanded diameter will be very similar.

There are three main points in terminal ballistics that matter to hunters-

1) Total Penetration depth (how deep the bullet actually penetrates)

2) Permanent crush cavity (what the bullet physically destroys by directly crushing the tissue)

3) Temporary stretch cavity (the tissue that is stretched outward radially from the bullet path)



In high velocity projectiles (above around 2200fps) the wound channel is significantly larger than the bullet. As such the difference in bullet diameter is nearly meaningless. As an example, using equally constructed bullets in both- if a 308win produces an average temporary stretch cavity of 8.30 inches wide, and a 6.5 produces a cavity 8.14 inches wide- you literally have a wound less an .16 of an inch wider..... Nearly unmeasurable in a lab, and completely meaningless in the field.



Terminal Ballistics isn't backyard "science" and gunstore myths anymore. What bullets do in tissue, why they do it, and how they kill is absolutely known and there is very, very little differnace between calibers everything else equal.




Originally Posted by alaska_lanche

why not go with a 243 or 22-250 for even less recoil.





I would. That 22-250 can penetrate as deeply with the correct bullet as your 308 with 180 NPT's or have a much wider wound while still having enough penetration to reach the vitals of a 400lb animal.




Can you tell me what made these wounds?

This bullet penetrated approximately 20in, no exit. Point of the shoulder.


[Linked Image]



This one penetrated approximately 18-20in, no exit. Went through the shoulder blade, this is the wound behind the blade.

[Linked Image]




Another as above, 18-20in penetration, through shoulder blade. This is the blade itself.

[Linked Image]








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Cool so I will sell everything but my 22-250 and rock on. Thanks man!! Just saved me loads of money!

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Brother, there's little doubt that you know how to hunt, but you lack understanding of terminal ballistics. Presuming because you didn't say what gun killed what- that you can't.... which makes sense- because you can't. And no one else can either.



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I know and I appreciate you narrowing down my gun safe! Gonna simplify an awful lot for me. I def spend more time studying maps and scouting than reading and studying ballistics no doubt so I will heed your advice and just go with a 22-250 for all my hunting. Should be fine I believe since all my hunting is 400 yards or less I believe. Thanks again for the help. Been enlightening.

I certainly have pics from blacktail deer shot with a 375 hh while hunting on kodiak that showed less internal damage than those pics above so you are 109% correct you can't tell any difference between what is shot with a 22-250 or a 375 hh so might as well save the $$$ and recoil and do it all with the lighter recoiling and cheaper to load rifle.

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Formid,
You bring up some interesting points and have proof to back them up.

I cant disagree, one question though you refer to approximately 20" of penetration. Do you believe that's enough for larger critters like elk?

I read on a previous post you were considering a 243 for an elk hunt?
And you posted a pic of you? in Glacier close to a grizzly with a Glock 9mm.

We know 458win mag(Phil) stopped a charging grizzly with a 9mm.

With new bullet technology maybe we should rethink the old norms?

That being said, I shot a small whitetail at close range with a 22 Hornet, tight behind the shoulder in the lungs. The load was a 50gr Hornady at 2300fps, it ran off and I never found it, made me sick thinking about it.

Point being you can go too far with the marginally powered rounds.
I suspect Alaska Lanche would feel a little uneasy prowling around Alaska with a 22-250, I know I would.



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PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha

Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by irfubar
Formid,
You bring up some interesting points and have proof to back them up.

I cant disagree, one question though you refer to approximately 20" of penetration. Do you believe that's enough for larger critters like elk?




As long as you the bullet starts in the vitals quartering away or towards, yes it's enough. I, of course would prefer more, however I want the widest wound channel possible while still penetrating deep enough.






Originally Posted by irfubar


I read on a previous post you were considering a 243 for an elk hunt?
And you posted a pic of you? in Glacier close to a grizzly with a Glock 9mm.

We know 458win mag(Phil) stopped a charging grizzly with a 9mm.

With new bullet technology maybe we should rethink the old norms?



I carried a 243 twice this year for elk and will again one more time. As for the 9mm, it's about hitting. As far as bullets- I think it's both. People went through "magnumitus" in the mid to late 1900's where only a 300 Weatherby was good enough for Texas deer. With that- bullets are VASTLY superior in almost all calibers and people have more opportunities to kill animals now. It's nothing to kill 20-30 deer a year now in some places which generally wasn't possible 30-40 years ago.

Once dudes really start putting animals on the ground with a bunch of different cartridges with correct bullet choices they tend to see that they are generally more alike than different.





Originally Posted by irfubar

That being said, I shot a small whitetail at close range with a 22 Hornet, tight behind the shoulder in the lungs. The load was a 50gr Hornady at 2300fps, it ran off and I never found it, made me sick thinking about it.

Point being you can go too far with the marginally powered rounds.
I suspect Alaska Lanche would feel a little uneasy prowling around Alaska with a 22-250, I know I would.




There's no doubt. I wasn't, and am not advocating a 22-250 for general Alaska use. I am saying that if one doesn't notice a large (or any?) difference between a .375 and a 308 in deer, there's no way that there is a large difference between a 308 and 6.5.


You can definitely kill a WT with a Hornet, but it'd be best to pay attention to bullets and placement...... just like with every other one.






Amazing how people have no issue killing with a pointed stick in the lungs, but a bullet that creates for mare damage causes so much heartache......

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