Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Help choosing new rifle caliber - 308 or 6.5creedmore

Exactly me either. I am merely saying aside from recoil the creedmor doesn't a major advantage over the simple 308 at ranges you would shoot deer at even using Low drag .6 BC bullets. But I guess that's lost on you as my posts don't make any sense to you and you can't see that. Or more likely I explained what I was trying say extremely poorly.

You're a bit touchy I'm this subject eh? None of it is lost on me, and the only aspect of your posts I commented on was your 1000 yard comparison.

Once again you introduced that, nnt me.

PS, I'm signing off to get in some exercise, which is more important than any of this stuff for my kind of hunting.

My 308 does 2600fps with a 208gr amax with a B.C. of .648

My 260 does 2700fps with a 140gr VLD with a B.C. of .614

Run the numbers to 1000yds and the 308 wins in wind drift by 6"
The 308 loses in drop, by 10"
The 308 wins in energy by 330 ft lbs
The 308 loses in recoil

You can play with the ballistic numbers all day long and make your pet cartridge look better or worse.

Kinda silly to argue over but this is the campfire and good sport to us.

This!

I have yet to lay eyes on a Bergara rifle. If it suits you, make this choice in confidence that you will do well with it. In whatever cartridge you choose.

A 180gr solid and a 180gr frangible has the exact same "energy", yet are completely different in flesh.

"Energy" is not a wounding mechanism, never was and never will be. It is an idea that was dreamed up in a time when they didn't know how to measure "killing ability".

That time is long over. How bullets kill and why is COMPLETELY known. It is simple- placement of wound, depth of wound and width of wound. That's it. Full stop.

If the bullet in question has enough retained velocity when it impacts the target to expand/upset/fragment/whatever, then it will kill just fine.





As for the difference between external ballistics with the 308 and 6.5..... It is possible to get very close. We compete with a 308 load that is within pressure limits yet launches a 185gr Berger at 2,800fps from a 26in barrel MR2000. It does over 2,700fps from a 22in barrel.

Yet UNEQUIVOCALLY in the field we get less hits in the same guns than we do with 243's/6.5Creed/260Rem/etc. Why is that? I mean ballistically they are so close you can't really hold the difference in the field, right? Wrong. And it's one word- SHOOTABILITY. It absolutely can not be over stated. Especially in lighter weight hunting guns the differences in hit rates (group size in the field) from varying positions, on varying targets under stress is measurable. It is for every single person. Given the same platform and mechanical precision, there is no one that can shoot a gun with 25ft-lbs recoil as well as they can a gun with 15ft-lbs of recoil. That is a mechanical fact proven through thousands of shooters.

There is so much more to killing animals at medium-long range than just external ballistics. Recoil, muzzle lift, mental focus, follow through, muzzle blast, etc all contribute to pushing one to NOT do what is required to hit things. They less stable the position, the more wind, the more physically and mentally stressed one is, and the shorter time span one has- the more the differences show themselves.


If both bullets cause enough tissue damage, both drop and drift the same, both have the same mechanical precision, and both arrive with sufficient velocity to cause bullet upset- the one with less recoil and less muzzle rise, will ALWAYS result in more hitting and killing. It is only with drastic changes in terminal ballistics that you see an increase with going bigger.

An example would be a 300 magnum using a 178gr AMAX started above 3,000fps. There is a massive, measurable difference in wound channels between that a 168gr AMAX in a 308win going 2,700fps. Yet even then- the actual "killing ability" (that is how many shot fired for how many animals dying) almost always favors the lesssor recoiling platform. Some people can shoot well enough to do very, very well with the 300's, but the vast majority will have better success with a 6mm/6.5mm even though they have less "power".

Great explanation!

Im going to the range now to shoot the Mashburn and the 6.5 Creed....

I never considered a .308 to be hard recoiling. I mean it's always on the list as a good option for youth and women for good reason. The .308 is suddenly not "shootable"?

Is it always the case that a lesser recoiling rifle yields better shots if the same rifles are both capable of the same accuracy and the only factor left is human? So a person will see better accuracy with a .22 lr or 17 hmr than a creedmor? Only asking cause I never felt hamstrung by the recoil of a .308. I guess subconsciously I am? Interesting thoughts for sure.

What you get with cartridges like the 6.5 creed(6.5x55,.260 rem. 6.5x47 etc.) over others like the .308 is the best of "the most with the least". The most BC., SD., mass and velocity with the least amount of recoil, blast, wind drift..., to effectively kill most big game animals in N. America( and Charles Shelton might have argued "All" NA big game animals).

If you are going to parse numbers, the less recoil of the creed wins out. And less recoil makes for better hits... and hits count.. and better hits count betterer.

It's not just recoil, but yes given everything else being the same a gun producing 5ft-lbs recoil will be shot better than a gun producing 15ft-lbs recoil. NOT JUST from pure recoil. One of the biggest things is to get people to learn is how to set themselves up and shoot the gun to catch their own trace and impacts AND then them learning to do it aggressively for every shot. Just as you should "fight" to get the most stable position possible, you should "fight" to catch your own trace, splash, and impacts on every shot fired.

There is stacking effect with doing so. Yes, watching the hit through the scope is good for follow through with helps greatly with proper form before the round has left the muzzle, but it does WAY more than that. When you make a call- elevation, wind, lead, or positionally AND you watch the results of the call in real time - your brain links the two consciously and subconsciously. You immediately learn from that one shot more than you would from multiple shots where you don't catch trace/impacts.

It is absolutely possible to spot your own shots with a 7lb 308 and 180gr bullets- I spot around 80% of the rounds fired from a 300WM past around 200 yards with a decent position, but it is significantly easier to do so, with far more consistent results with a 7lb 6mm or 6.5mm with close to the same case capacity as the 308.

Let's say that for example, peak shooting performance will be with a 223 and 75gr AMAX in a 10lb rifle- that's the baseline. Everything we do more than that will decrease our shooting performance. Less rifle weight= lower hit rates. More recoil- lower hit rate. More muzzle flip- lower hit rate. Etc, etc. Now when you add other variables such as range, wind, size of animal, etc it can and will change that. I may NEED (or want) the terminal ballistics difference with a 308 and 180gr TSX at 300 yards, BUT I will not shoot it as well. I may need (or want) the decreased wind drift of the 6.5Creed with147gr ELD's at 600 yards, but I won't shoot it as well- HOWEVER, I may get a higher hit rate due to less wind errors.


All of that is to say there is a sweet spot. The sweet spot for mid range shooting is somewhere between a 223 with 77's and a 308 with 185's and it meets around the 6mm and 6.5mm chamberings. They provide excellent external ballistics, very good terminal ballistics, are relatively easy to shoot, and tend to get shot A LOT. Those 4 things combined account for a lot more in the killing equation than any difference in "power".

If one were to take the wound channel of a 6.5Creed with good bullets and imagine that being put into the chest of an elk... There isn' a human alive that would say- "that ain't going to work". Yes, you have to hit the chest.... You also have to hit the chest with a 308amd a gut shot elk with one is a guy shot elk with the other.


With bullets, most hunters do not seem to realize that good companies design and produce bullets for OPTIMUM performance against whatever target they want. It is the reason (along with knowledge) that 223 and 9mm have went from "marginal" to being the absolute #1 choice of those how can choose, for killing bipeds. Animals are no different. It is not a big thing to design a .224 bullet to penetrate deep enough to get through an elks shoulder and reach the vitals- though to do so means a narrower wound channel. That's what you get when going bigger and/or heavier- a wider wound channel for the same penetration depth (or deeper penetration for the same width).

Well, if we're talking comparison of the cartridges and not what your particular rifle will do, this points up one advantage of the creed, really the reason it was developed.

Because I'm sure that's not a standard factory magazine that works well with a 208.

Cool!! Thanks for taking the ruins to explain! I appreciate it. Guess I am glad I keep shots under 400 yards where you don't need a masters in ballistics and such to hit an 8" kill zone.

Seems like this recoil aspect makes me wonder how anyone kills anything without shooting a 22 lr. I would hate to be a new hunter with my shiny new 30-06 ready to go only to be told that cartridge is way to big to shoot well with got trade it in for a 243 so you can watch your shots in the scope.

I guess I will just stick to hunting where my obvious ignorance is bliss and I didn't know I was over powered hunting with a .308

In all seriousness I do appreciate the explanation though

Really --- Ok the guy should use a 6.5 mm pellet gun on elk

Energy doesn't count... really

No, it doesn't. Explain how you think "ft-lbs energy" measures wounding capacity?

I am not quite sure why you still have a 300wm? Can you even hit anything with all that recoil? Would a muzzle break be a great equalizer in all of this low recoil equals better shooter biz?

Or better yet put a muzzle break on a 223 and 243 and have the ultimate killing machine?

No reason to be obtuse, but that's easy. Mainly sentimental reasons. It does have an advantage in terminal ballistics with certain projectiles, but that's not why I shoot it.



I shoot lots of 300WM, 300Norma, and 338 Lapua..... in 16-20lb sniper rifles.

I was jokin about the 300 wm deal and sentimental reasons is as good as any for keeping a rifle I have one of those myself.

But seriously would putting a muzzle brake on a 243 or 223 make for an even better sweet spot for shooters?

It would and a suppressor better than a brake. In general I don't want a brake on regular hunting rifles. I've no issue with them on dedicated LR guns and do have a couple of regular rifles with them but don't really dig them. They are a great way to control muzzle flip which is a help with really light weight guns.