Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Help choosing new rifle caliber - 308 or 6.5creedmore

Ok thanks! I appreciate all the advice sir.

No it doesn't...but i am late to the party since Formid already answered.

E = Mass * velocity ^2 divided by K (K is a constant)...


Some people understand bullet has too transfer it's energy (which depends on how well a guy knows how to pick the right bullet). However - it's transferring energy, so the terminal performance comes from one of these 2 (mass or velocity).

Mass has a linear relationship to terminal performance with "what it hits" -- bigger bullets moving at the same speed = more energy that can be potentially transferred - of course you could screw this up by using a FMJ right.

Velocity has a non-linear and changes over time...
- Low SD vs. High SD over distance velocity can actually cross depending on range, and bullet choice.


So was the question what is energy ? - well that's math.

The answer is - it can't transfer energy it doesn't have..

Bullets don't kill by transferring "energy".

No they kill by pure Fugg'n magic...

A wonder why people get hurt in car accidents, or even why cars just don't pass through each other when they collide.

So what's the problem here the word Transferring, or the word Energy.

While your at it explain what happens to the energy of a bullet that is recovered under the hide of an elk on the far side.

The bullet stopped in the animal... did the energy magically disappear ?


Now I need to go out and touch a deer with a bullet to see if it falls over and dies.

I have heard that a deer can faint from a bullet shot just over it's head so maybe you have something here.

What type of energy? Kinetic? ..or?

M*V squared is a form of kinetic

Of course there are a great deal more factors here

- but saying you can ignore math is just posturing in an argument, which is not exactly being honest.

Bullets kill by breaking bones,destroying muscle ,flesh, and vital tissue through the mechanism of expansion and penetration.

There may be an "energy" component to all of this but it is virtually worthless in predicting or quantifying terminal bullet performance.

All it means when a bullet is recovered agains the off side hide, is that the bullet expanded to a broad frontal area,and was "caught" by the stretchy hide. On its way through the animal the expansion caused gobs of tissue to wad up ahead of it as it expanded to a broad frontal area(creating that cavitation we hear about),and crushed that vital tissue, killing the animal.

It has no less, and no more, killing power than a bullet that did exactly the same thing but managed to exit by breaking through the off side hide. In fact the same bullet that was recovered at 100 yards might well exit the animal at 300 yards.

Can you tell me why?


Here is what they look like. You can compute the "energy transfer" of this bullet in a bull elk but I suspect you would be more accurate if you stated that it smashed a few neck vertebrae and pulped neck muscle before it came to rest under his chin.

Energy "transfer" had nothing to do with it.

FYI

Good read.



http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

A 650 grain arrow traveling at 150fps generates less than 40 ft lbs of KE. A 50 gr .22 varmint bullet traveling over 3500 fps puts out something like 1500 ft lbs. of KE.

Shoot both into the shoulder of a bull elk and see which one has a better chance of pass through. KE doesn't mean a hole lot.

I can tell you that if I drop a bullet on your head - it probably won't hurt you.


However, If I give it more energy - it can and probably will kill you. Savvy !


Yes the energy gets used by breaking bones, cavitation to cause a huge hole, and destroying material...

Without engery you can't do that - so yes you made my point well.

At least we agree that bullets make holes.

Remember my only arguement was that if a bullet doesn't have energy it can't transfer it.

Given you can set a bullet on your hand, arm, leg and so forth without it making a big old hole ... I think I may have something here.

Hint - if you said >.. hey spot, do you mean "transform" the energy into X, Y, or Z... you'd be right...

No....if you give it more velocity it might kill him.

You did not read Fackler.

Old myths die hard.

Yo, this thread is harsh!

LOL...

Fackler, not Falker... (Falker wrote a research paper..). He wasn't calling me a name.

I the ranges and speeds provided with the same powder column under them they are right - there really isn't much difference.

More deer have been killed by 22's than anything else - which is why I said "energy" that isn't there can't be transferred..

Both rounds have plenty for the most part...


Yes I was troll'n and they were bitting... Bad Spot !

It's arguable as to whether energy kills or not. Without imparted energy a bullet is useless. To make a bullet move requires energy. To make a bullet expand requires energy. To make a bullet penetrate any given substance requires energy.

An arrow kills by a different mechanism than a bullet and requires less kinetic energy to achieve it's purpose. Still, without imparted energy an arrow does nothing useful.

It is less than useful and requires too much energy to argue these things endlessly.

I'd like to hear more about the Bergara rifles.

Why do I find myself choosing a 308 Win. over any of the half dozen 6.5's I own.













It sure ain't for lack of confidence!


Quien Sabe!

GWB

Geedub, couldn't care less what size hole is in the barrel of those riffles, a guy could look at those things all day long! Beautiful tools in so many ways.

by no means do I denigrate the 6.5's



6.5 x 55




260 Remington




6.5 x 284 (my fav of the 6.5's)




6.5 Leopard (6.5-300 WSM)


I just seem to reach for the 30's more these days!



Quien Sabe!

Your killing me, so your saying the 308 isn't a modern cartridge?