Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Help choosing new rifle caliber - 308 or 6.5creedmore

As modern as your 1950 Chevy.....

No idea where you came up with that.

Seems you're reaching for an argument that simply isn't there.

I can tell you that if I accelerate a soccer ball by kicking it hard, it will bounce off your chest harmlessly. But if I accelerate an arrow of similar weight to the velocity giving it the same kinetic energy, it won't.

They'd have the same kinetic energy, but which would you prefer?

One problem with energy numbers as a quantifier of killing power is that it completely ignores bullet construction,penetration, and expansion after they hit.

Another problem is the energy isn't being "dumped"....you can't correlate wound channel size and nature to energy figures.

This business of the "bullet staying inside the animal for pure energy dump" is silly nonsense from another era. By the time the bullet reaches the off side hide all the serious damage is done and the animal will die whether the bullet exits or not,assuming you shot him right in the first place.

I can't believe the notion has any traction today.

Totally AGREE.

Much like the 'theory' of brush bucking bullets.

Altho the PROOF is old...

Some people just won't give up.

Jerry

Oh be careful there Mr. w--
I got grilled for saying those things 'here' sometime back.
What some WILL NOT admit is ...
WITHOUT energy >> nothing gets done.

Right On Mr. w.


Jerry

What kills is sufficient disruption of organization. It requires energy to do that but energy itself is not adequate - it is the manner of energy transference that matters.

You could, in theory and depending on location, push an object through an animal very slowly, say over a period of many months, and the animal could live. Using the same object and amount of energy but do it in a small fraction of a second and the animal would often die rather quickly.

It is an observable fact that velocity kills. If all else is equal, using an expanding bullet, the faster bullet will drop a deer quicker than a slower bullet of the same weight and type.

The .308 is as reliable a deer killer as you could ask for. Use a 150 gr expanding bullet and it will kill any deer as dead as can be. But it is not unusual for a deer to run before falling.

Add energy in the form of velocity (kinetic energy) by using a larger cartridge and the same bullet as used in the .308 and the chances of the deer running decrease.

In fact, you can use a smaller diameter bullet, and if you add enough velocity the chances of a deer running still decrease. For most deer hunting, I'd put the .243 against the .308 on any given day and expect deer to drop quicker with the smaller faster bullet.

YMMV, but I'm not alone in my observations.

Velocity itself kills nothing. If it did, the light rays and subatomic particles and radio waves that hit and/or pass through your body would kill you instantly.

It is the disruption of organization that kills. That takes energy. Higher velocity for a given mass yields increased energy but again, if velocity killed you cold shoot an animal in its foot and kill it just as reliably as if you shot it through the heart.

I'll stand on what I said above. This is not the light ray forum, the subatomic particle forum, or the radio wave forum. This is the rifle forum. Any sane discussion of cartridges and bullets must conclude that velocity kills.

And, IMO, more is generally better.

Meh.

I find it has a lot more to do with matching the velocity to the performance characteristics of the projectile. During a 2 year period of our great pig jihad circa 2009-2010 I killed over 200 wild hogs and 6 or 7 deer with a Benelli R1 30-06 carbine shooting 150grn Hornady SST's @2650fps. That load dropped them like God himself reached out and turned their power switch off. The number of DRT's was staggering, probably 90+%. The wound channels were messy!

David

I'll agree that, other things being equal, more velocity is generally better. That was pretty much the point of the second paragraph in my post above.


Still, it isn't the velocity that kills, it is the disruption of vital organization. Given a choice of a faster FMJ or a slower but fast enough expanding bullet, I'll take the expanding bullet for game every time as they do a better job of transferring energy.

Bingo!

And BTW, the 6.5CM is a nice cartridge, but it's no speed-demon

Compared to what? This whole thread is about a choice between the creedmoor and the .308.

There is no bad choice to be made between the two, but the creedmoor is certainly faster with it's middle weight range deer bullets, say 120-130 gr. And, pursuant to the OP, note that the recoil is less, as well.

Advantage 6.5...

FWIW, the weight/diameter ratio (SD) puts the 120/6.5 bullet exactly identical to the 165/.308

At any rate, use what you will, there is no wrong answer. If you wanna use the horse rifle, AKA the 30-06, that's fine. You'll do OK if you shoot it well.
Same with the .17 Rem. They are more alike than different.

A lot of mental m..... going on. What a thread.

In the end they all work. Scott - no doubt the CM is a Johnny come lately since the Swede produced these ballistics in the 1800's. That said yes factory ammo and rifles with affordable quality ammo that flattens America's most common game animal with no fuss and great accuracy has introduced many to 6.5's and their virtues. I was shooting Swedes 20+ years ago and a 6.5-308 before the 260 was out. Owned a CM too and now have one 6.5. A Lapua as you know. All fine modest rounds.

6.5's aside most any normal round kills well with good bullets. The game changer for me and the 308 is the 130 TTSX. Run #'s and you find it hits within a couple of inches of a 260 130 at 400yds w a 200 POA/POI. Most game IMO is killer this side of a 1/4 mile. I could run either. Never "needed" a 308 but would like to try one sometime and with the 130 for lighter recoil.

Neither is a wrong choice and both very capable. It's like ice cream...pick a flavor you like.

Sorry I am late to the party I have been deer hunting!

The Begera looks like a nice rifle are you hunting the woods or across fields?

If I was buying the rifle I would opt for the 308 and a good scope suited to where I was hunting. Having cheap readily available cartridges is a big plus. I have killed a lot of deer with cheap power points/core locs, and I have killed a few with the 223 and TSX bullets.

If I had to choose one rifle to hunt with the rest of my life it would be the 308 Winchester. It will always work and there will always be cartridges available for it.

The cheap power points in the 308 and 30-06 as sold at Walmart for under $20 a box will kill any deer you hit right them with. Funny stuff.

Final question, how does a 140 grain bullet shot from a Creedmore or a 7-08 in an 7.5 pound rifle kick that much less than a 150 grain 308 fired from an 7.5 pound rifle provided velocity about the same?

Hope you enjoy your new rifle what ever it turns out to be!

Thanks jimmy. Mostly open fields ,occasionally in the woods/timber. Probably leaning towards the 308. Heck i still have 5-6 boxes of ammo left over from my 308 tikka anyway. I would definitely consider a creedmoor in the future or possibly a swede or .260

The 150/.308 and the 140/6.5 are an apples-oranges comparison.
In any given bullet style you'd have to drop to around 110 grains or so in the .260 to get an SD and a BC that was as low as the 150/.308.
And in fact, those who have 6.5 rifles that shoot them accurately have great success with the 100 gr ballistic tip, on deer. A 100/6.5 almost equals the 150/.308, ballistics wise.

In any given bullet style a 6.5/140 would compare very favorably to a 180/.308.

Same goes for the .243 with various 90 and 100 gr bullets. They don't really punch above their weight, but it might seem they do to someone who had only shot larger rifles on game. They are very effective.

Savvy riflemen figured this out 70 years or so ago. Old traditions die hard. And that aint' all bad. The 30-06 is at the core of every American rifleman's consciousness.
It was the cartridge that was prevalent and available at the point in time where everyday guys began to travel to hunt.

I know one thing for sure.

I do like the amount of "leakage" I get when employing bullets of larger caliber and increased mass.














I like having a blood trail a blind man can follow





should the critter not be DRT, and I have to track in the thick stuff!


ya!


GWB

Hey Geedubya! Your break open is a beautiful rifle! You and I don't hunt with a calculator but with a lifetime of experience. Here are a few from the last 5 years or so. I shot a few slick heads as well, but no pics.

what you said...bigger hole is more blood.