Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Home Defense 300BLK SBR Questions

I'm thinking about building an SBR, using 300BLK subsonics, that would be used solely as a home defense weapon. I come to that decision based on a balance of factors, including size, weight, performance in a short barrel, penetration, stopping power, and efficiency in suppression.

With that said, I've shot a standard M4 type rifle plenty of times, but I have zero experience with the 300BLK, SBRs or suppressed weapons. So, I have some questions about the process of building such a system. Again, this weapon would literally go two places- the rifle range, for training and maintenance, and my bedroom for home defense.

If I want to keep the thing short and maneuverable, I see their are offerings for 9-11" barrels and 5-7" suppressor combinations to help keep the overall length in the standard M4 length range.

I assume that the subsonics are the best way to go to get the DBs to the point where I don't care about hearing protection. And the ballistic limitations of the subsonics are not an issue at the distances we're talking about for home defense.

How do I take into account the combination of ammo load, barrel length, gas block system and BCG to ensure proper cycling of rounds? For those who have built such a weapon system, did you use an adjustable gas block to tune all those factors?

My concern is to ensure proper and reliable cycling, mitigate excess back pressure that may be created with a suppressor, felt recoil/muzzle jump and management of the amount of gas when shells are expelled.

Also, for such a close quarters weapon, would you even bother with optics or would you just go with metal sights and/or a laser and just point and shoot?

Thanks in advance,
Rob

Maybe look at going the AR pistol route with the 300. That way you avoid the SBR hassles and expense.

First -skip the subsonics. You're not smoking sentries before the assault team moves in. Super sonics will be fine without ear pro in the 300BO in your house and have MUCH better terminal ballistics. Subs aren't even as good as good bullets in a 9mm/40/45acp.


Second- forget the "point shooting" nonsense. Everything is aimed, even at feet. A good red dot with a white light should all but be mandatory for a home "defense" gun.


Third- the best thing you can do is to buy a quality well built upper from one of the better manufactures already set to shoot subs and supers. WAY less hassle.


Fourth- 110gr Barnes Tipped TSX Black tip.

why not a pistol caliber carbine like the beretta storm in 45ACP?

To be polite.....

Because pistol cartridges suck at killing things. Putting them in a rifle doesn't improve things, and in fact hurts as the bullets arent desinged for the extra velocity.

223 and 300BO with supers is a FAR better choice for use against living things.





To be blunt.....

Pistol caliber carbines are freaking stupid. Nothing like getting all the downsides of a carbine with none of the upsides.

But the op asked about 300 BO subsonic. If you launch a 30 caliber 230 gr bullet or a 45 caliber 230 gr bullet ~1000 fps, you have the same ballistics. The only difference is the 30 cal bullet is going to need to really open up, or it will be zipping on through your walls off into the neighborhood.

While our military has mostly moved away from smg's, the Tommy Gun and Grease Gun seemed to have worked pretty well in WWII.

The LeHigh Defense 194gr bullets intended for the 300BO have earned good reports. I tried Sierra Matchkings and an Outlaw State on a doe, and a pig respectively, and was unimpressed.

I keep a Daniel in 300 as the house gun. It is loaded with supers, 125gr Noslers, which I have seen work well on pigs. It's basically a .30 carbine on steroids, which is fine with me.

I looked hard at pistol Caliber carbines, and all of them seem to wind up with funky features that turned me off, or were of uncertain quality. The .45 ACP AR lowers that accept grease gun mags are pretty interesting. I have to think a 230gr Gold Dot at 1200 fps will be very effective. But it's not a cheap option.

I was just thinking a 45ACP 230 grain gold dot from a small carbine would be easier to hit with equipped with a red dot and flashlight. Even the 124 grain HST's in 9mm in a carbine. Not sure but would not the 300 BO with a 110 grain barnes penetrate more "stuff" than a 124 grain HST from a 9mm carbine?

Not even close. Pistols cartridges (9mm/357/40/45/etc) are literally the worst at penetration of indoor structures while also having the smallest wound channel.

Once again- pistol caliber carbines SUCK for real use. There is nothing you can dream up to take the stench away from that.


And again, increasing velocity on pistol bullets DOES NOT increase performance. It DECREAES performance. Modern pistol bullets are designed to perform exactly at their correct velocity window. Adding FPS hurts them.









Because they didn't have anything better. There is not one that would pick a SMG over a M4 based 5.56 or 300BO. And as soon as they had the early 5.56 carbines they dumped the SMG's immediately.


A super sonic 300BO or 5.56 with a can will be fine without ear pro if needed for its purpose and has the rather not insignificant benefit of better tissue damage, less risk of over penetration, better platform, etc, etc, etc.

I don't always agree with with Formidosilus, but am 100% in agreement with him on this stuff.

When you hear someone talk about wanting to use 300 Blk subsonics for reduced penetration in a home, you can be sure that person does not have any experience with this stuff. There is a very limited selection of bullets that actually perform correctly in subsonic 30 cal rifle loads of any headstamp, and if you use anything else, penetration through meat and home building materials is astronomically higher than a good 223 or 300 supersonic load.

I don't know why people have such a hard time wrapping their head around supersonic 300 loads. It's just a 7.62x39 in an AR15, with better bullets and without the feed issues. No more, no less. It's not a 30 carbine, or a 30/30, just a better development on a common soviet cartridge that's proven to work acceptably well all over the world.

110gr Barnes from a .300 BO - indeed impressive



but a 230gr Gold Dot at 1167 fps is not shabby. This is from a .460 Rowland, which is probably close to what a .45 ACP would do from a 16" barrel

I get the love for ARs (I've got some) but for strictly "home defense" indoor ranges, I'll stick with a 18-20" barreled shotguns. For protecting a larger property where outdoor ranges come into play, then an AR makes more sense. Just my opinion.

Pistol cartridge carbines generally provide pistol cartridge ballistics, but shooter has an easier time shooting accurately............which is a big deal, and justification for the platform IMO.

This is a good time to actually listen to the "Been there, done that" guy....

I've looked hard at tactical shotguns, too, but can't warm up to them, either. Even a quality unit, like a Benelli M4, will be longer and clumsier than an AR, and hold fewer shots. The M4 is pretty spendy, too.

If the bullpups like the Kel-tec KSG were known to be reliable, they might be an option, but so far I'm not willing to shell out the cash to be the guinea pig.

Compared to an AR in 5.56 or 300 Blk? No. My 6 year old can shoot a 5.56 AR.

Benelli makes great autos, but aren't the only reliable autoloader out there. Certainly one of the most expensive though.

Regarding ammo capacity, there's probably a security blanket feeling that comes from a 30rnd mag, but a shotgun with a 6-10rnd capacity (and more ridding outside) is no slouch for HD scenarios. If you accept that most threats engaged with a carbine will receive multiple rounds (on the trigger until the threat drops) all of a sudden your 30rnd mag, even if divided by a conservative three shots, gives the user ammo for 10 targets. But at HD ranges, the trauma from a single round of buckshot will likely suffice. Different wound characteristics, but lots of damage nonetheless.

There's always a doomsday scenario where a whole biker gang comes into your home at the same time, but realistically (at least for me) 8rnds in the gun with more riding on it is enough to not feel under-gunned. YMMV, and that's OK.

If you want your six year old making shoot/no-shoot decisions, that's your call. I was referring to adult shooters, and either pistol caliber carbines OR 5.56/300BLK carbines are easier to shoot quickly and accurately under stress than handguns.

Way to throw false arguments into a reasonable discussion. Grow up and try to follow the conversation. Nobody else was discussing handguns or shoot/no shoot decisions.

YOU brought up a 6yr old.

I agree the AR adapts to pretty much every size and shape of shooter, but why mention a young child?

My point in the previous post was that pistol cartridge carbines DO have the advantage of shooting said rounds more accurately than from a pistol. Nothing more.

And yes, pistol calibers were discussed earlier in this thread.

I just struggle to understand how a 45 ACP 230 grain gold dot out of a pistol sucks, but sucks more out of a 16 inch carbine. A dollar a shot practice ammo vs 50 cents a shot or less. Beyond the ammo cost I agree 300 is a far better round.

I've got some 230 gr HST bullets fired through water jugs that look awesome with the full mushroom shape and sharp edges. But I've got some fired through wood that didn't open and penetrated way past the 3 water jug length. Gold dots did the same.

Speed kills and things moving around 3000 fps are a pretty safe bet.

The Colt 9mm carbine I had was a fun toy but nothing else.

Grab some sheet rock, wood and water jugs and see where you want to place your bet.

One consideration in some houses and communities is IF you want wall penetration.

Don't much care here if it over penetrates,never had kids, closest house is 300 yards or more....across the road.

But RE the 9mm carbines... a buddy has one, I was not impressed that much with the idea, but after killing a lot of varmints with it, I'm actually impressed what a 9mm 124 bullet does to yotes/coons/possums/dillos etc... even gar and carp.

I"m not saying its good for 2 legged but its done WAY better than I expected.

RE pistol better than rifle, well flipping duh, I didn't think anyone would need to say that, but then again pistols kill fine, it seems to just take longer to die, so the DRT kind of thing isn't often happening with one except CNS... Hell from stuff I've seen video wise you may not even know if you are hitting someone.

House wise... we have a shotgun by the bed, along with a 9mm glock, and sometimes an M4 type clone or AR of some type. Likely I"d grab the handgun out of instinct in the house, backed by the shotgun, and if I have to go outside, grab the AR. But in reality if I had to pick one of three, the AR would get the nod.

RE some comments about the 300/221 and 194 lehighs, they work REALLY well on deer and pigs.. but again getting an DRT isn't happening unless CNS hits. OTOH I"ve used a buddys super sonic one with 110 barnes TAC and I've not had a single DRT on pigs yet. Same shot placements. In fact for some weird reason the supersonic pigs have run a bit further on average, but better trails and all dead.

Regardless, the 300/221 with supers will be as hearing safe as need be, with a suppressor inside the house.
Which to me is really moot, I think the chances of ever actually havign to shoot inside your house is about .0001 percent or such... and hearing is the last thing I"d worry about in that situation personally... I would be worried actually more about muzzle flash if that...

A lot of misconceptions.....

You have to understand terminal ballistics- in this instance the permanent crush cavity and temporary stretch cavity. The permanent crush cavity is the permanent wound of crushed and damaged tissue. The temporary stretch cavity is the temporary wound caused by the passing of the bullet that stretches the tissue radially outward. In pistols (velocity under around 2,200fps) the temporary stretch cavity is NOT a significant factor in wounding due to the elasticity of most tissue. Velocity over that IS a significant wounding factor as the tissue will tear and fissure. So looking at slowmo gel block shots that look impressive of pistol rounds is deceiving as the TC is not really effectual. With pistols the permanent cavity is only about as big as the bullet diameter i.e.- what the bullet physically touches. .


Increasing velocity of 45acp from 800fps to even 1,600fps does not change the Permanent cavity. The problem is that being the only wounding being done is what the bullet physically touches, the bullets are designed to achieve full upset (mushroom) at a certain velocity, in this case 800-900fps, at velocities over that range the petals will over expand, fold back or tear off causing the wound to be a narrower diameter.




There is no comparison in wounding potential between pistol and rifle cartridges.










As for shotguns, while 12 gauge buckshot can be devastating at close range, shotguns are more complicated to manipulate, significant recoil and muzzle flip slowing follow up shots,, hold less rounds, and are range limited. Despite what most seem to think shotguns are not death rays and DO have to be aimed.

Most people, especially non gun people, would be best served with a properly set up AR variant. They are simpler to use, require less manipulations, and have less recoil and muzzle flip allowing after follow up shots. They are easier to mount a flashlight and white light as well.

I watched a guy pattern a Benelli M4 at the range one day - I was thinking of buying one and was curious to see what it did. He was using buckshot, and the load made about a 6 inch pattern at 25 yards. Yeah, you have to aim them just as well as a pistol or rifle. I guess some sort of "spreader load" might open the pattern better for short ranges, but then you may not hit the attacker with the whole load.

That Benelli in question was choked to some degree. No other way to hold a 6" pattern at 25yds.

But the fact remains a shotgun does need to be aimed/accurately pointed at the target, and Hollywood has created a very inaccurate portrayal of how they really work.

Several years ago I took a friend coyote hunting in the sandhills at night. At my suggestion he brought a Black Eagle loaded with #4 buckshot. We had a full moon that was bright enough to read a newspaper by and about a foot of snow. We were set up in a newly planted shelter belt with cedars that were about chest high. First squeal on an AP-6 brought a small 'yote running in. She slowed to a walk and finally sat down about 25-30 yards out. Tim was sitting with his arms braced on his knees, aimed and touched it off - and never touched a hair.

Tim shoots trap and skeet 9 months of the year; he owns a membership in a private waterfowl club and spends every weekend of the season in a blind; he shoots turkeys spring and fall. When I asked him, "What the Hell...?" He said he was breathing so hard and shaking so much that he couldn't focus on the target so he just shot...

Yeah, you have to aim!

this thread makes me laugh

As usual thats a lot of help.

Nice.....

For the house, I'd keep about 16" of barrel, and roll with the 110gr VMax, at 2400 fps.

A can will eliminate the flash, too.

Anyone want to comment on the practical difference between the 300BO with its best bullets, and the 7.62x39, with 123gr softpoints?

Since I actually do have the parts to assemble a PSA in the cartridge.

I read great things about some of the 110 bullet offerings out there. Some with near 100% fragmentation specs and nice short penetration- impressive. I can also appreciate the added usable range the supers would give me that the subs can't match over about 50 yards if the fight ends up outside at all.

I have a friend that was a police sharpshooter and he said for non barrier urban sniping type targets they used Hornady 110 grain Tap Urban in .308. He shared a story where they had a hostage taker and the only shot they had was at his face. He said that bullet was like a tiny grenade went off in his head.

subs work for me on deer out to 175 yards... not sure at all where the idea is they ain't good past 50...? They do drop but the energy is fine, and the 194 lehighs retain close to 100% weight and have never not opened and generally about 2.5x expansion . Just as an FYI.

so there is zero utility for a pistol caliber carbine, interesting.

In addition to what Formo has correctly stated above, a suppressed AR, wether shooting subs or supers, will measure around 140db at the shooter's ear. You're dramatically reducing your ballistic effectiveness without gaining any significatnly measurable reduction in sound (at the shooter's position) by going to subs. Others in the house will be exposed to less overall noise, but you're not really doing yourself the favor you think you are by going to subs. I'd suggest 110 Barnes or 125 OTM supers that are engineered for performance at BO velocities. 8.5"-10.5" barrels, IME.

As to the 300BLK, I have nothing bad to say, a SR30 w/ a QDC suppressor is a wicked little beast, be it subsonic or supersonic. For what it is intended to do, nothing else, including the 5.56, can.

A 110 Barnes TAC-TX can run 2100+fps from an 8.5", will expand immediately, and will still penetrate 20" of ballistic gel. Rather nice marriage for an effective SBR at close quarters. Likely best choice in such platform for home defense.

Not saying you can't kill something with subs out at 50-100+ but in defense of the supers, they would be a faster, flatter trajectory, and easier to predict impact point down range. Honestly, this is one of those things that people could argue about for 10 pages as usual on the campfire. I'm just listening to peoples' advice. And although I do read that the subs would be noticeably quieter suppressed, especially in an enclosed space, I can see the argument for the supers as well. If there are offerings that provide less likelihood of over penetration, have higher terminal kinetic energy in the target, and also provides some additional flatter trajectory ballistics in case the fight ends up outside, they are certainly worth considering imo.

Thanks for everyone's input,
Rob

Thats why I said... FYI...

I"m not worried about noise in the house if i have to kill someone. That will be my last worry.

It will be if you have to shoot, move and communicate.

Even ear muffs with an electronic cut-off are better than nothing.

I suspect you may have fired a rifle in an enclosed environment, but its a one-time and hearing loss event.

That's why the Marines are looking at cans on every M4.

Ditto with flash. Not an issue if you fire once, but a firefight is a completely different issue.

A can solves both.

No they're fun to shoot!

Quieter at US ARMS matches.

That's about it though.

Mike

Much better bullets available for the 300, otherwise the ballistics are so similar it doesn't matter. The bullet selection is a big deal though, don't overlook that.

If you're putting it in an AR15, the 300 is far easier and uses all common parts.

one wonders why anyone buys those CZ Scorpions or the Sig mpx guns other than "fun".

People buy all kinds of stupid stuff thinking they are more than toys.

I recall we had an interesting discussion on these things under the handgun forum we decided that 9mm was big enough for grizzly bear with the right bullets. Form my HD gun is a Colt 6720 with an aimpoint T1 and TLR1 HL loaded with 62 grain federal fusions these discussions are "academic in nature" in an attempt to learn more about different cartridges and their applications.

That's a straw man argument. The two uses are completely different. No one is recommending a 300BO for a carry pistol. Once carbines came along that we're reliable and the same size as SMG's, SMG's were obsolete.

If your'e going carry a carbine, carry a carbine.

The carbine is a compromise, I'd take a 45 acp sub for close range such as home defense. As a 45 speeds up, so does effectiveness.

I never would consider the house as the same as combat... I'd assume... yeah I used the word, that a shot or two and generally the incident is stalled. I would not have to expect to communicate after shooting or during, there is only one other person in our house.

But that doesn't mean that after I"m finished with the 300/221 AR upper that I started 3 years ago, I won't have it sitting by the bed with the can on.

Not sure I'd have time to put on muffs and turn them on. Though the cur generally doesn't sleep through much...

I have fired both handguns and long guns in buildings. I don't envy that. It may be part of why I need hearing aids I think the dr said on the last visit, it was hard to understand him....

Point was though if I deem it needed to kill someone in my home, thats serious enough that I"ll take the hearing loss if it comes with it.

Obviously like anything else if I can avoid the noise or shooting someone I will do my best.

Having to shoot someone is beyond the very last thign on my list that I"d ever want to have to do.

a 9mm even "out of doors" is painful. I don't find the 45ACP quite as painful used in an emergency. I have killed several deer with a 223/6.8SPC 16 inch barrel without ear pro and cannot recall it was painful.

noticed the same thing. or better still, a pistol caliber pistol

....he said as if no one ever died from the effects of being shot with an Uzi, MP5 or Mac10 or Schmisser MP40 or Suomi KP-31 or PPSH41 or.... .

Please regale us with your vast experience carrying and using an uzi, MP5, mac 10, MP40, KP-31, PPSH41? As well talk about your experiences carrying and using M4 based SBR's in 5.56 and 300BO? Maybe you can illuminate the differences, pros and cons between them in regards shoot-ability, recoil, manipulations, range, etc, etc?


Then frost it with your findings in tissue damage, penetration, accuracy, etc.






I mean one might wonder why literally no legitimate organization/unit uses SMG's anymore for CQB....... Or at all.

Maybe you should do the same and list your experience.

Had to go full retard, didn't ya?

well, you certainly told me

pretty much

sounds like he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once

are you the teapot or the kettle in this instance ?

FWIW, I already decided to go with an AR style SBR in 300BLK for this single purpose weapon. That's why I framed my original question as I did. All I was really looking for was advise on setting up such a rifle with regard to the gas system to "tune" it for the best balance of recoil, muzzle jump, ejection site gas, and cycling reliability. Within that framework, I do appreciate the advice on the supers vs subs, because it does impact the noise and would impact the gas system. It's hilarious how guaranteed it is to start with such a non assuming thread and it ends up in a death match. That's the way of the Campfire though

Are you wanting advice on how to tune it, or what parts to use, or ??
Are you handloading or buying factory ammo?

Just wondering if people had experience to share with adjustable gas blocks and whether it worked well or if they would recommend just buying a weapon already custom built for this purpose. I'm also wondering if people find that the adjustable gas blocks have to be re "tuned" over time due to things like carbon build up in the tubing and a suppressor affecting back pressure. Not sure about factory or hand loading but either way, I will likely make a pick of a load/road and just keep it consistent. I'd rather have consistent behavior and leave the low moa pursuit to my longer range rifles.

7.5 inch, #31 drill gas port in the pistol position, PRI adjustable gas block....if you like light barrels, JPR .936 adj gas bock if you like heavy barrels.

That PRI looks very reasonably priced for the reviews I read.

I think those of you that don't think lighting off your weapon in the house will be ok for a shot or two, go down to the local indoor range and light off a few rounds of your favored weapon without ear pro. Then get back to this thread.

I would(and have)the suppressed BLK in the house and would choose it first if warding off hordes of waifs raiding my beer fridge. But in reality, it is a 20 ga shotgun at the ready cause the wife can run it.

You don't have to tune anything at this point in the BO game. Buy quality parts from a reputable company and use the Barnes VorTX ammo. Pistol-length gas and just a plain-ol fixed gas block. I currently have barrels from Noveske and AAC that have both been flawless with that configuration. I'm running standard CAR buffers. I started out a BO skeptic, but am now a huge fan. Deer hunting with mine tomorrow, too.

Yes, a bunch of us here have experience with adjustable gas blocks. I wouldn't expect to need one for a short barrel 300 Blk setup unless you're trying to use heavy bullet supersonic loads. It depends on your barrel though. Set it up with all standard carbine parts, and if it's overgassed, use an adjustable gas block.

I use simple set screw adjustable blocks to set it once and forget it, and have not had to go back and re-tune any of them. I won't pay more than ~$50 for one of these.

I would not recommend a 7.5" barrel unless you're willing to sacrifice significant ballistics for an inch or two of compactness. 9" to 12" is the sweet spot for this cartridge, with longer barrels being quieter when suppressed.

Greentimber's advice above is good too.

What made you a huge fan?





Dave

over consumption and lack of exercise are the usual suspects

Pistol calibers in pistols are handy.

Pistol calibers in carbines give you an unhandy pistol.

Here's a quote from Michael J. Durant from the book IN THE COMPANY OF HEROES;

"I aimed the CAR-15 and pulled the trigger, and the burst of automatic fire took me by surprise. Randy had put the weapon on burst mode and I hadn't checked it, but it sure was effective. One moment the Somali's head was there, and the next moment he was gone. I can't say for certain but I think I killed that man.

I looked at the weapon in my hands and thought, This is what we need, not that MP-5 piece of crap. The heavier bangs of 5.56 mm ammo seemed much more effective than the 9mm "pops" from my MP-5."

end quote.

I don't know but given the same size, I'll take a bigger cartridge.

Carry on.

...and now for some non fiction;
Guarding the worlds most important negro

Don't shoot much 9mm, 40, 5.56, 300BO, or 7.62..... Though 10k rounds per man per month certainly "isn't" much.....








Never even seen a 5.56 or 300B0, nor anything else....

Keep in mind the aftermath of pulling the trigger. As a civilian, pulling the trigger is the beginning of years of legal issues in most cases. They tried to crucify at least one defendant because he had grip tape on his pistol. Try to defend yourself when they say you were looking to kill someone because you had a suppressor and sbr. I am not going to tell you what I think you should do, just to keep it all in mind when you decide what you need.

Cool toy boy.

So I was at Wally World tonight looking at gun rags while the da wife was shopping.

I saw a write up about a 5.56 round, it was loaded with an 85 grain arrow (lol), that might be an interesting round. I believe it was loaded by Barnes.

I like your hat!

the 10.5 inch barrel 223 with a 55 grain bullet at 2500 FPS or so indoors at spitting distance is interesting, but I got to think a 55 grain 223 at 3100 FPS within the same distance would produce slightly better results. The pistol caliber carbine in 45 ACP I am thinking real benefit would be a few dB's lower should you not be able to get your ear pro on. Just sayin is all. I don't dispute the effectiveness differences.

I've shot too many head of game with a 45 to buy into the BS that the wound channels is the same at 800 fps as it is several hundred fps faster.

If we could only get a 4 page thread on how to make quick accurate hits in the kill zone of your target.

Lets see, first round hits head. Round 2,3,4,..... all go over the top of what was there anyway... LOL. hit in the head, a 9mm would have done the job.

One more time, I"m just curious, all raise their hands that have ear muffs by the bed and intend to use them in the heat of the moment?

LOL, having owned a Colt 9mm carbine and an identical one in 223, it didn't take much shooting to know which one was a cool range toy and which one I'd stake my life on.

That said, I did search the house one night with a 9mm pistol and that's what I carry everyday, it ain't gonna bounce off. I just don't believe the benefits of the 223 carbine can be beat, if you're grabbing a carbine...

Pistol chambered carbines do hold an advantage when kept subsonic and used with a suppressor.

But that's a pretty tight niche even by loony standards.




Dave

Not me, I have a suppressor by the bed. At that point (just talking about sound level here), caliber doesn't really matter.

Personally, if I'm going to use a 9mm on someone in my house, it'll be a pistol, for maneuverability around corners. If I'm going to use a long gun, it'll be a rifle caliber; I want all the advantages I can get.

And there is never a doubt that 223 trumps 9mm no matter the case.

I'm thinking this is good for at least another 3 pages.

At least!

I view the .223 like a criminal proceeding. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it's not perfection.

Good luck.



Dave

Oh it has to be AI'd to meet perfection but it is close.

That's kind of a personal question Jeff.

Ear muffs.... damn didn't type slow enough. LOL

I try to keep the muff here in the bed and not by it. LOL

My thinking was full-pervert; that earphones were kept handy for "in the heat of the moment" hearing protection..............to which I'd say your technique is strong.


Anyway, back your regularly scheduled programming..........

Versatility. If you aren't running suppressed you won't see as much gain. The ability to have reliable function with subsonic ammo through a can gives you another tool that you just don't have with the 556. At first there were no good options for projectiles, but now we have Barnes black tips and Lehigh MEs. The round was engineered with short barrels and cans in mind. I still rely on the 556 for many roles (love the 70 TSX) but like not having to dick with blackouts to make them function suppressed and short.

If it's a life and death situation, I don't care as much about some hearing loss. But, if I have something that's small enough to be maneuverable, long enough to be accurate and steady, and suppressed enough to not go death, it's worth considering imo. Of course, no one knows what the bad guy is shooting which can kill your hearing so this may be moot. But all other things being equal, I'd rather have no hearing protection on so I can tactically hear the other guy moving around up until I hopefully shoot first and it doesn't matter what he has in his hands.

yes, I think some folks overthink some safety type things when it comes to life and death.

I know I can't have a suppressed gun to kill a charging brown bear most likley... and I won't have time to put muffs on either...

Same goes for human life and death.

I much prefer to experience neither. Bear or human issues.

But I've no issue with using a suppressor in the house, I'm good with that, but as noted, do I put out a sign that perps have to have cans too?

Heck we took care of our ears with custom molded plugs for years of shooting service rifle and my hearing was still damaged by that WITH protection...

having fired a supersonic BO "outdoors" a few times and fired a 5.56 in similar situations its my impression the BO report is not as loud or painful. I have a set of pro ears gold on my dresser, not sure if I would grab them in an emergency but they are sitting there, as I am quite familiar with the 5.56 report out of doors. About 5 years ago I had to stop shooting feral shoats because it was painful to shoot again and I had 10 more 75 scirroco's left in the magazine and a bunch more piglets in front of me.