Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 1897 Savage contract with Mexico

Arthur W. Savage met with President Diaz twice and was asked for a price on 30,000 Savage 1895 rifles to be delivered within 7 months. Upon telegraphing to Utica with the request, the top management of Savage Arms replied to Arthur that so large of a contract could not be filled in such a short time.

So Mexico ordered 8,000 Mausers.

Aaargh...!!!

The output of the Savage Arms company was 49 guns a day as of August 3rd, 1897 (according to a newspaper article).

Can you imagine even 8,000 more military 1895's being made? Much less 30,000...

As a comparison to the output... 70 employees were putting out 70 guns a week in 1899. A night shift of 24 employees was being added.

I'd really like to know the specs of the rifles ordered by the Diaz regime: were they perhaps really carbines for his rurales and cavalry? Lever actions were in wide use by his opponents a few years later, but mainly carbines used by mounted men.

Lever action infantry rifles seem an odd choice at the time, when infantry was starting to learn to dig in or lie down.

On the other hand, Savage was to all reports a very good salesman....

According to this newspaper article, the order never fully happened. President Diaz asked for a quote.

I'd say it was likely it would have included both carbines for cavalry and muskets for men, the New York military trials in 1896 was going to be both.

Slightly off topic, but Mexico also arranged to purchase Arisaka rifles in 7X57MM from Japan around the time of WWI but Mexico was going through harsh financial times and the majority of these Mexican Arisakas ended up going to Russia. Very rare firearm, I have never seen one in the flesh.

Diaz was President until 1911. I'm thinking the bigwigs nixing this contract might have seriously ticked off Arthur, who'd envisioned his rifle as a premier military firearm from the very beginning. He won the New York trials the year before, which was then dogged by lawsuits and eventually cancelled when the federal gov't handed over rifles for free to NY.

So a contract to sell up to 150,000 rifles to New York cancelled after he wins it, and then the company telling him he can't make a deal to sell between 8,000 and 30,000 rifles to Mexico.

Ouch.

Seems to me that within five years General Pershing went chasing off into Mexico on the heals of Pancho Villa. I don’t know how strong the Diaz government was, but it must have had problems with Villa giving him issues in the north and Emillo Zepata in the south. Maybe the U.S. Government was being cautious about sending 30,000 arms south of the border which could have ended up in the hands of those who were giving us problems too. Such are the travails of being an international arms merchant. Besides, Savage still had Brazilian torpedoes and radial tires out in front of him. He ran the tire company longer than he did the firearms company - from 1901 until his death in 1938. Goes to show that you can’t keep a good innovator down.

Go to Google Maps or Earth and enter the following address to see where the Savage Tire Factory used to be:

2201-2399 Main Street, San Diego, San Diego County, CA

Article from February 18th, 1898 says that an order for 2,000 rifles had been received from Mexico. But as Savage only had 200 rifles on hand and their new factory was being assembled at that time, they couldn't fulfill the order.

So... 1897 President Diaz was interested in a big order, and in 1898 he followed it up with a smaller one? Or was Arthur just repeating the same story?

But the 200 1895's on hand tidbit was interesting since it had a firm date.

PS: Separate article from February 17th, 1898 specifically states it was 2 separate events, a request for quote in 1897 and an order in 1898.

Another question that occurs to me is what caliber/cartridge was proposed for the Savage rifles and/or carbines for Diaz' forces?

We all know that the various rebel factions later used LOTS of .30-30 WCF arms, including a few '99s. But I'm not aware that Don Porfirio's army or rurales used that cartridge at all, at least officially (Federal officers carried whatever they fancied--and could afford; sometimes even Savages).

So was Savage offering .303s to a regime that had never used them? And was familiar with the caliber but mostly in the hands of those about to become its mortal enemies? Or, were they planning to modify the '95 to take 7x57 Mauser, the Mexican Army standard, which would have required a heck of a rework and production delays?

Puzzling.

Found this in my stash of things I saved long ago.

Be cool to find out about those 20 guns.

Interesting, but if you lived in Columbus New Mexico the idea of 30,000 guns coming into the possession of a shaky government may have made you a bit nervous. But still interesting.

Of course I also have to mention that Columbus NM has a park known as Pancho Villa State Park - so I guess all is forgiven.

I don't think most Americans thought Don Porfirio's government WAS shaky back when that deal was contemplated. If they thought about Mexico at all, they knew it was--literally--a gold mine for foreign investors who were lucky and/or knew what they were doing, and Diaz was doing all he could to keep it that way.

Both of my grandfathers worked in Mexico for/with that regime and had for years when the revolution got out of Diaz' control. They made out well up to that point, got out, and were vehemently anti-revolutionary all their lives. One of them later spent a year chasing Villa around with Black Jack Pershing, and had a lot of fun in the process. But then he thought the Western Front in WWI was amusing, too....

taken from an article dated in 1911, when Porfirio Diaz was overtaken..

"Forewarned about the movement of the rebels towards the hacienda, Fairbairn had ordered horses, saddles, arms, and other valuables hidden, but because the rebels had both sympathizers and followers among estate residents these were quickly located. Among the prizes taken at Cruces were the exceptionally fine personal weapons of the estate managers, including four semi-automatic pistols in small (.22) to medium (.380) calibers, three Winchester semi-automatic rifles in calibers ranging from .22 to .351, as well as a Savage .303 rifle and a Winchester shotgun. Also taken was supply of ammunition for those weapons."

Sources: Copy of ltr, T.M. Fairbirn to W.S. Conduit, Hda Cruces, Durango, 20Feb1911, incl. in Charles M. Freeman to Secretary of State, Durango, Durango, 23Feb1911, 812/862, R11, M274, NARA.
List of Losses to Rebels, 15Feb, 13Mar1911, Thomas Fairbairn and Patrick O'Hea, as encl. to Hohler to Sir Edward Grey, México, D.F., 28Jun1911, FO371:1148:27071

dave

Looting haciendas wasn't a major source of weapons for the rebels but they surely got some good 'uns there! Ammo supply was always a problem for them, and this collection wouldn't have helped that much--VERY gringo gats.