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Originally Posted by MikeL2
Originally Posted by msinc
Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by mathman
[quote=Kimber website]Kimber rifles are designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99” or less at 100 yards by a highly skilled and qualified shooter using factory ammunition.


"are designed to be capable of"

"highly skilled and qualified shooter"

No wiggle room there. grin



Ding, ding!!!! If there ever was a statement not worth the paper {in this case tag} it was written on it is the Kimber accuracy guarantee!!!!! I have a Mountain Ascent, which is where I read the useless blob of garbage. Not saying I don't like the rifle, certainly not saying it wont do the shooting...I am not "highly skilled" and don't know if I "qualify" for anything, yet the rifle will shoot under one inch...but that wording of the guarantee...why did they even bother????


Go back and read it again. Where did you see the word "guarantee"?? It ain't there!! Its an accuracy standard.


My mistake fanboy...the fact is, bar, guarantee, standard, minimum code...you can hang any name on it you want they all mean the same thing and it is STILL NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT IS WRITTEN ON!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by msinc
Originally Posted by MikeL2
Originally Posted by msinc
Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by mathman
[quote=Kimber website]Kimber rifles are designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99” or less at 100 yards by a highly skilled and qualified shooter using factory ammunition.


"are designed to be capable of"

"highly skilled and qualified shooter"

No wiggle room there. grin



Ding, ding!!!! If there ever was a statement not worth the paper {in this case tag} it was written on it is the Kimber accuracy guarantee!!!!! I have a Mountain Ascent, which is where I read the useless blob of garbage. Not saying I don't like the rifle, certainly not saying it wont do the shooting...I am not "highly skilled" and don't know if I "qualify" for anything, yet the rifle will shoot under one inch...but that wording of the guarantee...why did they even bother????


Go back and read it again. Where did you see the word "guarantee"?? It ain't there!! Its an accuracy standard.


My mistake fanboy...the fact is, bar, guarantee, standard, minimum code...you can hang any name on it you want they all mean the same thing and it is STILL NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT IS WRITTEN ON!!!!!!!

Well, if they all mean the same thing to you then there's your problem.

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How much IS the paper worth? Seems somebody has a Kim-burr up their ass...

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I think the entire notion of accuracy guarantees is amusing. I don't know why anybody pays any attention to it.




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Low budget marketing and fuel for the 'fire...

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
I think the entire notion of accuracy guarantees is amusing. I don't know why anybody pays any attention to it.
Yup.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH
I think the entire notion of accuracy guarantees is amusing. I don't know why anybody pays any attention to it.


If you're talking Kimber, I agree.

If you're talking a company with a reputation for accurate rifles, it would mean something.


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Just imagine how many Tikkas would sell it they put a 1/2 MOA guarantee on the label.

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Originally Posted by Fireball2
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I think the entire notion of accuracy guarantees is amusing. I don't know why anybody pays any attention to it.


If you're talking Kimber, I agree.

If you're talking a company with a reputation for accurate rifles, it would mean something.


I hear you but I'm still with Bob. I guarantee I know people that couldn't shoot a 2" group with a rifle capable of beating the world accuracy record of any sort. Way too many variables to consider. Heck I shoot a couple pounds of powder and several hundred bullets finding 'The Load' when I'm working with a new rifle. I shoot plenty of 2" groups in the process to blame the rifle. And I bet I shoot more than 90% of people.


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Darrik,

Yes, it is definitely a trickle-up effect, but what I've observed over the decades is the bigger the rifle company, the less likely they are to take chances on new trends. No doubt this is partly because it costs more for a big company (which makes and sells more rifles) to make a bunch of trendy rifles--and also costs more if the trendy rifles don't sell, in several ways. It also takes longer to respond to trends, because more factory changes are required to tool up, or even just make room for new tooling because they're already producing successful rifles.

In some ways they can't PHYSICALLY move fast enough to take advantage of new trends, but they also need to make money for stockholders, so are run by more people, including a board of directors and management staff that are normally at least middle-aged, and got where they are by making prudent, well-considered decisions. So they're not set up either mechanically or organizationally to make quick changes to accommodate current trends.

And the people that run them have seen plenty of trends come and go over the years. They've been involved in running major companies for decades, not gunsmithing shops or retail stores. They're looking at the big picture, not just what's happening this year.

This is why smaller companies owned, often owned by individuals or families, usually take the initial advantage in new trends. Back in the the late 1970's synthetic-stocked rifles, lightweight rifles were the hot deal among rifle loonies. The trend started growing, but for a long time only custom rifles filled the demand. Then in 1985 Melvin Forbes started making semi-production rifles on his own actions, and a few larger manufacturers started dipping cautiously into the market.

Remington eventually offered the 700 Titanium around 2000, but they still weren't quite as light as NULA's. Kimber was the first to make a production rifle in the same weight-range as Melvin's--20 years later. All of this is why mid-sized rifle manufacturers, like Kimber or Weatherby, will take risks on rifle-loony trends long before larger companies.

One of today's trends is heavier long-range rifles, especially "chassis" rifles--and like lightweight "mountain" rifles in the 1970's, the first were primarily custom rifles. This finally started to trickle up to major manufacturers like Ruger and Savage in the past couple of years.

This doesn't mean the major manufacturers are dumb. Instead they're playing a different game than NULA, Nosler, Tikka or even Kimber, so they play by somewhat different rules.


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I want somebody to explain to me why Ruger can gamble on plastic revolvers, the most fugked up looking lever gun known to man, and the Gold Label, but they can't take one of their 8 twist barrels and chamber it in a GD 22-250!

And until I get an answer, I'm not posting any more.


Clark



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Or Remington with the Etronx...

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Originally Posted by bwinters
Originally Posted by Fireball2
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I think the entire notion of accuracy guarantees is amusing. I don't know why anybody pays any attention to it.


If you're talking Kimber, I agree.

If you're talking a company with a reputation for accurate rifles, it would mean something.


I hear you but I'm still with Bob. I guarantee I know people that couldn't shoot a 2" group with a rifle capable of beating the world accuracy record of any sort. Way too many variables to consider. Heck I shoot a couple pounds of powder and several hundred bullets finding 'The Load' when I'm working with a new rifle. I shoot plenty of 2" groups in the process to blame the rifle. And I bet I shoot more than 90% of people.


Can't really argue that, but why is it then, that there are numerous posts regarding the accurate shooting of Kimber's, that insist there is some special technique necessary to shoot a light rifle such as this? These are from Kimber fans, not the competition. It would seem to me it's another reason not to own one.

What I've found with the few Tikkas I've owned, is that you could pretty much grab a box of ammo while blindfolded, and it would shoot 1" or better. I've never seen less fussy rifles, and that includes customs.


It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Yeah but Tikkas suck.

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Those that don't know will never know anyway. They can't tell you twist rates on anything they own.

Those that do know have more control on buyers than most believe.

FWIW -- my 8" 223 American shoots 40 grain bullets at 3800fps in tiny little clusters. They reasoning is utter crap...


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Originally Posted by shortactionsmoker
Can you imagine how many 22-250 Montana's they would have sold if they hadn't screwed up the twist? Hell, I pre-sold 50 in less than 24 hours before they flip flopped. Thank God I didn't take any money up front!

A 1 in 8" 22-250 would eat up a big chunk of their rifle production capacity.


Its funny that an 8 twist would do NOTHING but increase sales? but they wont do it.

The guy that dont know chit wont know any different if it was 14 or 8..No downside.

I know i'm preaching to the choir.

And agree with Bobnh, accuracy guarantees are for window lickers. I dont know anyone that doesn't tweak a factory rifle or fix it to their liking.

It'd have to be pretty screwed up to even consider sending it back to the manufacturer, even then it'd just as likely be sent to the local gunsmith.

People crack me up

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I just received a new 84L Montana in 30-06 from Euro Optics. Went through the tweek checklist and found none of the tweeks from the past neccessary. Mag box fits correctly, barrel float alignment perfect in stock. Trigger quickly and easily adjusted to a crisp 2.5-3 lbs. bedding is actually pretty damn snug though I will probably fill the lug area with a bit more material. Waiting on some DD's to arrive and will shoot it in the coming days. This rifle replaced same cal Tikka T3, in hand the difference is quite appreciable. Glad I went this route rather than dropping the $633 for an McM edge for the Tikka.

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You've got three scenarios-

1) Company #1 offers an accuracy guarantee/warranty/standard, whatever you want to call it, semantics. Problem is, they suck and don't stand behind it or they make excuses for their products rather than remedies. You send the rifle back, they keep it for 6 months, return it, same sheit. They get pissy on the phone. They deny the rifle even has an issue. Falls within specs, etc Blah blah blah.

Bottom line, worthless. Nobody respects that. This ring any bells?

2) Company #2 offers an accuracy guarantee and actually cares enough to answer the phone, promptly deal with the issue, replace a stock, replace a barrel, kiss your ass, scrub the floors, whatever it takes to make the rifle shoot. A true no excuses "our products must work" guarantee. Not a rifle company, but I think most would agree Leupold falls into this category.

Bottom line- all but the most jaded of the world appreciate a company that stands behind what they sell like this. Companies like this are called "great". Everybody loves to buy their products. You don't feel like you need to show up with lube to buy Company #2's products.

3) Company #3 offers no accuracy guarantee. You know what you're agreeing to, so there's no illusion you're buying something you never received. People don't feel tricked, stolen from, cheated. They weren't promised anything, and they knew it going in, so if it doesn't work out it's on them. Of course, if something is blatantly wrong, say the bolt handle falls off, you hope the company will understand and rectify.

Bottom line- people can respect a company that shoots straight with you and tells you up front what you can and CAN'T expect from them.


The moral to the story is that the only company people can't stand doing business with is the one that lies, cheats, and jerks their chain if there's a problem that falls under warranty and isn't dealt with right.

Screw those companies, there's plenty of others willing to stand behind their products and not make excuses. Again, I've not owned a Kimber rifle, but reading all the sob stories, I can't see myself going there. Why would I? FWIW.


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More estrogen from the PNW

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So does this mean everyone should shoot a Savage with Vortex glass?


Which, interestingly enough, I don't really hear a lot of praise or bitching about Savage.

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