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Calhoun Offline OP
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Going through some old saved articles... throwing out miscellaneous stuff in no special order.


New York specified a 30 caliber gun, 28" barrel, 1 in 9" twist, metal jacketed bullet of 220gr weight, max 36gr powder.

Tests could be done with other calibers and cartridges, but the final sale would be for "present standard service smokeless powder ammunition of the United States government" - which would have been the 30-40 Krag.

One newspaper article says "United States Government cartridges were used in the test." by the Savage rifle.. so it was chambered in 30-40 Krag according to this.

Wow.. just found this: "Heretofore Its sporting pieces have been manufactured under contract by the Marlin Fire Arms Company of New Haven, Conn., while the military pieoe tested yesterday was made at the works of Pratt & Whitney, in Hartford, Conn."

Wetterau (?) powder from Belgium was used by the Savage.

One test was to fire the rifles with an overcharge of powder, 40gr instead of the normal 36gr. When measured out on the scale at the testing ground, the powder overflowed the case. Arthur Savage thought the charge much more than 40gr, and upon taking it to a druggist found it to be 75gr. If it had fit in the cartridge, Mr. Savage thought it possibly would have burst the gun.

The contract would be for up to $300,000 and 15,000 rifles over 3 years.

No field tests done with issuing weapons to troops, just various tests in front of the committee at the Thirteenth Regiment Armory in Brooklyn. Accuracy, endurance, pierced primer, sand in receiver were some.

Winchester rifle submitted was the 1895 sporting pattern with military forestock.

The Savage rifle performed best in the endurance test whereby they fired 400 continuous rounds. The Savage finished in 26 minutes, 15 seconds (32 minutes, 5 seconds for the Winchester).

The Savage rifle excelled at tests for single loaders, with an expert firing 35 shots in one minute. However, it did break down during the single load test but was easily repaired.

Winchester did better in the accuracy contests overall, but their gun was fired by a military shooter while the Savage was fired by Arthur Savage. Long range tests were 500, 800 and 1000 yards.

The Savage rifle is said to have fired through a 2' oak tree during the trials.

One Savage carbine was presented to the committee for review, it was not used in any tests.

Trials started on or about April 20th, 1896.
Trials ended on June 28th, 1896.

The commission reported the unanimous selection of the Savage rifle as it's choice on or about July 14th, 1896. Muskets for infantry, carbines for cavalry.

October 23rd, 1896 is when Governor Morton turned down the Savage rifle purchase in favor of getting Springfield rifles from the federal gov't.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Calhoun Offline OP
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Based on the information above, I would hazard a guess that it's quite possible that "The Pre-1899 Military Rifle" on page 13 of David's book is the musket that was actually tested for the trials.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Neat stuff; thanks for it!

Never been a fan of the '95. Its magazine especially sucks compared to the Savage 95/99, although it could use stripper clips. Could the Savage military musket use them? (Never seen one up close enough to tell).

The '95 is also a pain (literally) to carry long distances, at least the .30-40 we had when I was a kid was difficult to carry in any of the normal hunter carry positions, even for my dad. The balance point (magazine well) hurts your carrying hand, or your forearm if you carry it over your left arm.

Certainly the Savage could have been modified to use stripper clips, since the "Greek" Mannlicher-Schoenauer '03 used them to feed its rotary magazine.


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Calhoun Offline OP
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Twelve rifles from different manufacturers were submitted to the board by April 21, 1896 - but only five models were accepted for testing. These were:
1) Winchester Arms of New Haven, Conn.
2) Savage Repeating Arms of Utica, N.Y.
3) Briggs-Kneeland of New York City
4) J.H. Blake of Batavia, N.Y.
5) Bethel Burton of Brooklyn, N.Y.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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I don't think military rifles of the time got any better than the 98 Mauser. And though I like the 03 Springfield, it is an overly complicated interpretation of the Mauser design. Perhaps the 1917 was the best battle rifle we had going until the Garand but we opted to not make it the standard issue. While the thought of a military 99 is intriguing, I still think I'd prefer a good bolt gun for battle at that time. On another note, any 99 chambered for the 30-40 Krag must have had a highly modified receiver. Does anyone have good pictures of these rifles (obviously I'm one of the saps who doesn't have Mr. Royal's book).

Last edited by S99VG; 12/10/16.

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Calhoun Offline OP
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I believe it's the right-most rifle in this picture. It's on display at the Savage factory in Westfield.

Originally Posted by Longbeardking
The 92 is the middle rifle in my picture. Taken at the Savage plant in Westfield, Mass.

[Linked Image]


It has a very long tang, an 1899 style bolt, and a lever that looks like it's off an old Marlin. It was really bizarre to me that there would be a military prototype that was apparently post-1895 design since it has the 1899 bolt. Why do it when you have 1895 muskets? But if a 30-40 Krag was needed for the NY National Guard trials then this gun makes sense.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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There were 2 NY trials. The 1st (1892) was the US Ordnance Trials. The rifle was the Colt produced Savage 1892. It was chambered in .30-40 Krag.

The 2nd (1895) was the National Guard Trials which Savage submitted 100 1895's.

The original author of the info posted above took the two tests and mixed it all into one. David found this same info when writing his book but we got it squared away before it was published.


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Calhoun Offline OP
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Rick, I am not reading 3rd hand sources. I am reading newspaper articles and such FROM 1896 about the National Guard trials. Dozens of articles, multiple newspapers.

There is no indication that 100 rifles were submitted. Why would the committee take 100 guns when all of their testing was at ranges on only single guns? In fact, when Winchester and Briggs-Kreeland were claiming Savage only won by colluding with the panel, one of the arguments they made was that there was only 1 Savage gun made and so purchasing the Savage was tantamount to buying a wholly experimental firearm. That argument made no sense when I read it because Savage would have sold a thousand 1895's by then at least... But if they only had one designed for 30-40 Krag it makes some sense.

PS: that's not to say that every fact I've stated above is 100% accurate. We all know how badly reporters can screw up.

Last edited by Calhoun; 12/09/16.

The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Calhoun Offline OP
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The 1892 trials were a totally different affair, and nothing I have referenced here had anything to do with the 1892 trials. That information is actually far easier to read through, I've done it a couple of times over the last 10 years.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Originally Posted by Calhoun

One newspaper article says "United States Government cartridges were used in the test." by the Savage rifle.. so it was chambered in 30-40 Krag according to this.

This article seems to indicate that all the Savage guns were .303 Savage both in the illustration and in the text. (I think this is about the same trials.)

[Linked Image]

This one about it is from one of the unhappy competitors, the #3 marked paragraph is about the cartridges but does not specify the calibers, but does seem to indicate that the Savage rifles used different cartridges. Statement 2 is interesting because he didn't think Marlin was capable of making these rifles, he seems quite biased so I don't how much of this can be considered accurate.

[Linked Image]



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Thanks much for all the great info. A 99 chambered in .303 makes sense but how Savage may have stuffed a .30-40 into the receiver without major modifications still intrigues me.


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I'll get my notes out and post the demensions of this rifle's receiver later today. David


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For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
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Calhoun Offline OP
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Gene, I do see in that last piece where the competitor is complaining about the Savage gun, that he describes an 1895 bolt and not an 1899 bolt. That definitely argues for an 1895 and not the mystery musket.

At the same time, both articles reference single guns from the manufacturers and not 100.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Originally Posted by S99VG
Thanks much for all the great info. A 99 chambered in .303 makes sense but how Savage may have stuffed a .30-40 into the receiver without major modifications still intrigues me.

I got curious about that same thing after thinking about the problems I had fitting a .410 barrel and just getting the action to handle the larger rim of a .410. Comparing specs the 30-40 Krag has an even bigger rim - 0.545" compared to the .410 @ 0.528" and the .303 @ 0.506".

What really surprised me was the length, the 30-40 is shown as 3.089" compared to the .303 Savage at 2.520". The .308 Winchester that required some changes because of it's length is only listed as 2.800" - my thought's are that it would almost certainly take a lengthened receiver just so the 30-40 would fit in the magazine.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by GeneB; 12/10/16. Reason: added picture

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Been trying to get back to this all day...

Just throwing out some comments. Still trying to adjust my thinking on the subject.

The transition musket (whatever we are going to call it) now has a 1899 style bolt. During the test it had an 1895 style bolt. Correct? The bolt would have been one of a kind which means that a replacement was made for it at a later time or that the 1899 bolt originated because of changes to this rifle.

There was a comment about the Savage ammo being loaded with just 30 gr. of powder vs. the required 36 gr. The Savage .303 was factory loaded with 30 gr. of powder at that time. Could also just mean that Savage was using lighter load .30-40's.

My earlier comments on the NY Guard Trial rifles originated from a letter from JTC in reference to 1895-D, 3351 which is one of the converted muskets like the one Mad-Dog has. Acceptance was 2/14/1896, no ship date. The letter states: "The remaining (log) entry shows this rifle to be a rare "military" version. Sometime ago a search of the Model 1895 ledger book was made for various serial numbers of the military models recorded. the tally of the various numbers yielded that a total of 100 military versions were made at Marlin. The breakdown shows 96 regular full stock models and 4 were listed as military carbines. These rifles were of course for the New York Militia Trials of 1896".

There are three muskets, that I know of, including Mad Dogs that have been reworked from there original configuration. Mad Dog's, unlike the #3351 musket has a 12/1896 acceptance (later than the NY 1896 Trials) and a 9/1898 ship date.

In copies of a few 1895 log sheets I count 10 other muskets all accepted between 11/30/1896 and 1/9/1897. There are 6 of these with readable ship dates and they are all in the Sep to Nov of 1898. Were they shipped as reworked rifles as Mad Dogs? Were they returned trials muskets (what trial?) that was salvaged like with the Savage .45's. Or just non-sellable inventory?

None of the above answers anything. Just posted to add pieces to the puzzle. I think I might have lead David down the wrong path on this subject and if my thinking was wrong then I'm the one that made the error in David's book.


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You all talk about the muskets so what about the one in 32-20????

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This is all good stuff. Please keep the conversation going!


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The opening in the receiver of the pre-1899 musket is 3 5/8" compared to about 3 1/4" for one of my 1895's. This is about the difference in length between 30-40 Krag and 303 Savage loaded rounds. In other words the bolt would be about 3/8" longer and the receiver proportionally longer.
Maybe the cocking indicator bolt was a prototype for the 1899 bolt.
David


wyo1895
With Savage never say never.
For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
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This sound like the artical that JTC statement is linked to...

http://americansocietyofarmscollect...-Arms-Model-1892-Musket-B083_Johnson.pdf

I've had no luck finding the publication, New york militia rifle trials 1896 by Gilbert E Newton. Anyone else locate it?

David's measurements of the Pratt & Whitney, "$20,000, 3 year production time", transition musket sure sounds like a rifle that would have been submitted to the NY Trials. If this is the one then the bolt was changed after the trials to correct one of the problems. This might account for why the bolt was changed when the Model 1899 rifle went into production.

Appears the people at Savage don't/didn't have the history on the transition rifle, either.

Last edited by Rick99; 12/10/16.

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Calhoun Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Rick99
Been trying to get back to this all day...

Just throwing out some comments. Still trying to adjust my thinking on the subject.
Yep, these newspaper articles bring up a lot of possibilities.

Originally Posted by Rick99
The transition musket (whatever we are going to call it) now has a 1899 style bolt. During the test it had an 1895 style bolt. Correct? The bolt would have been one of a kind which means that a replacement was made for it at a later time or that the 1899 bolt originated because of changes to this rifle.
It purportedly had an 1895 bolt. The only reference to that is by Bethel Burton (a competitor) in his complaint letter in the paper that Gene referenced. Now, was he referencing the gun that was in the trial, or was he referencing the carbine that was shown to the commission, or was he referencing the sporting arms that were being sold?

So that's 1 strike against it being the pre-1899 transition musket. I'll keep an eye open for that in anything else I run across.

Originally Posted by Rick99
There was a comment about the Savage ammo being loaded with just 30 gr. of powder vs. the required 36 gr. The Savage .303 was factory loaded with 30 gr. of powder at that time. Could also just mean that Savage was using lighter load .30-40's.

My earlier comments on the NY Guard Trial rifles originated from a letter from JTC in reference to 1895-D, 3351 which is one of the converted muskets like the one Mad-Dog has. Acceptance was 2/14/1896, no ship date. The letter states: "The remaining (log) entry shows this rifle to be a rare "military" version. Sometime ago a search of the Model 1895 ledger book was made for various serial numbers of the military models recorded. the tally of the various numbers yielded that a total of 100 military versions were made at Marlin. The breakdown shows 96 regular full stock models and 4 were listed as military carbines. These rifles were of course for the New York Militia Trials of 1896".

There are three muskets, that I know of, including Mad Dogs that have been reworked from there original configuration. Mad Dog's, unlike the #3351 musket has a 12/1896 acceptance (later than the NY 1896 Trials) and a 9/1898 ship date.

In copies of a few 1895 log sheets I count 10 other muskets all accepted between 11/30/1896 and 1/9/1897. There are 6 of these with readable ship dates and they are all in the Sep to Nov of 1898. Were they shipped as reworked rifles as Mad Dogs? Were they returned trials muskets (what trial?) that was salvaged like with the Savage .45's. Or just non-sellable inventory?

None of the above answers anything. Just posted to add pieces to the puzzle. I think I might have lead David down the wrong path on this subject and if my thinking was wrong then I'm the one that made the error in David's book.
One possibility of the 100 military guns is that they were ordered by Arthur W. Savage just to have on hand to show to potential buyers rather than being actual trial guns. The original Marlin order was supposedly 10,000 guns - so having 1% of the order be military arms isn't too crazy given Arthur's urge to sell to that market.
As to only one gun being submitted: I've been seeing between all of the newspaper articles and Gene's find references to just "gun", as though a singular firearm was the only one at the trial. Sometimes the words "guns" or "rifles" are used, but to the best of my recollection it's always when referring to the rifles of multiple manufacturers.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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