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DD: Bill died a year or two ago now.

Not sure if he shared his process with many people other than Joe Abrams of Grizzly Bullets. While his bonding and bullets were unique for the day, I'm pretty certain the technology has caught up to what Bill was doing,even if the newer bullets are not precisely the same the results are close enough that no one is deprived if they want Bitterroot performance. Like I said, Bill told me that the bullet closest to his BBC was the Aframe. This is what he told me a few years before he died and after he had stopped making bullets.

The only thing I am uncertain about is whether the newer ones can withstand the high velocity Bitterroots were known for. But you take something like the current TBBC with a solid shank and bonded front section, I see no reason why that bullet would not be as good as anything. Only problem is they aren't available for hand loaders.

So probably best to leave the BBC where it was as a step in bullet evolution, a unique high velocity bonded bullet that did things others didn't.,and set a standard followed by others. In that regard it belongs with the Partition.

If you have some, use them.

And if you do, you don't need anything else.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I can only comment on what I have shot into dry print at 100 yards the bullet I saw that most closely compares to the BB performance.

The Barnes LRX


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Yes I hear they are good...comes from RinB using it in Africa. I think he has used the 129-270 and 145-7mm on a good number of animals.

He has also used the 130 270 and 140 7mm BBC's over here. Maybe he can chime in.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Woodleighs


Anyone here have a recovered one to compare?


"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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Here's a 160 BBC.

Comparing on the basis of recovery might tell the whole story.


[Linked Image]




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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So what did a bag of those things sell for?


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Bellydeep:IIRC we were paying Bill about $300 bucks for 200 bullets way back when.That's for the standard stuff; the bigger calibers were a bit more expensive.

He limited buyers to 200 of any single bullet run. You could of course buy less than that ad many did.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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So interesting for me to read all the people who spent hours on the phone with Bill. Here, I thought I was the only one:)

I can still remember where is was when Bill recommended another bullet for me to use on my Brown Bear hunt. He didn't have any bullets for my 330 Dakota at the time.

He recommended the 250 gr. Swift A Frame!! He told me at the time, that bullet was the closet to his bullet.

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I called Steiger 5 or 6 years ago IIRC looking for some bullets. He had none, but proceeded to talk on the phone for nearly an hour about bullets. Great guy!

Last edited by BWalker; 03/14/17.
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For all those that may be concerned about the rear bulge on AFs that tucks up behind the mushroom, don't be.
From my understanding of physics, it in effect, moves the bullets CoG forward thus contributing to increased
stability in target.

A sphere does not fly as well as centrefire hunting bullets, but a sphere also cannot yaw or tumble like a centrefire hunting bullet,
hence a soft point deforming AF style, to become more spherical with the associated shift in CoG, means less chance of tumbling
in target.
But of course we prefer not to have the detrimental nature of a spherical forms propensity for deflection. The AF below seems
to well address that issue, by delivering a healthy meplat area.

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by BWalker
I called Steiger 5 or 6 years ago IIRC looking for some bullets. He had none, but proceeded to talk on the phone for nearly an hour about bullets. Great guy!


I spoke to him in 14-15 a few times. He would keep you entertained for as long as your cell would hold out. We have great Bullets these days but the BBCs are still darned wicked for bullet with just a jacket and lead.. no partition or any other locking deal. They just expand and penetrate.


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North Fork Bullets
Design Philosophy by Mike Brady.


"This article goes into the design philosophy behind North Fork products. A philosophy is just like an opinion and opinions are just like that other
thing – everybody has one. So here is mine.

I am of the old school that appreciates the terminal performance reliability of a lead cored bullet. But I also like the indestructible nature of a solid
sectioned bullet. When you marry the two concepts, the result is a bullet with a bonded lead core in the front and a solid rear section.

The design itself is surely nothing new. I have seen examples from as early as the 1930s, and I bet that someone somewhere had a similar notion
and experimented with it even earlier.

As far as I know, the earliest commercially available bullet with a lead core in front and solid rear section was offered by P. O. Ackley in the late 1940s
and early ‘50s. It was called the Ackley Controlled Expansion Bullet. Prior to bringing it to market, Ackley spent 10 years experimenting and refining
his idea to come up with an internal design that would retain the structural integrity of the bullet on impact. Roughly ten years later, Jack Ashurst,
better known for manufacturing reloading dies under the name of Jax Dies, made a bullet of similar design. The most reliable sources say that they
were commercially available from 1958 through 1960.

That next step in evolution was left to none other than the designer of the daddy of all bonded bullets, Bill Steigers of Bitterroot Bonded Core Bullets.
In the late ‘60s, Steigers sold a product based on the Ackley design but improved with his own core bonding process. He had Ackley’s permission
to call it the Ackley Style Solid Base Expanding Bullet.

However, since this was before we had reliable and (relatively) cheap CNC equipment, this bullet was so labor intensive that Steigers eventually
droppedthe Ackley design and went back to his own homegrown and already perfected design, which, by the way, will always be known as the
bullet that started the bonded era and to which all other bonded bullets are (or should be) compared.

As with everything else in this industry, there is rarely something completely new. You just find different people doing it. The Ackley design has
been copied by many (myself included) over the past 50 years.

In addition to tweaking the internal design to improve the range of usable terminal impact velocities, my primary contribution to the evolution of
the type was to put relief grooves in the solid section of the bullet.

Solid sections, especially of soft copper, have always had two inherent problems as a result of forcing an essentially solid object down a rifled barrel
– increased fouling and possible pressure spikes. In a solid sectioned bullet, there is nowhere for the material displaced by the rifling to go. In a full
length lead cored bullet, the deformation of the lead core actually makes room for the displaced jacket material.

Not so in the case of a solid sectioned bullet. But by adding grooves in the solid section you give the material displaced by the rifling lands an easy
(lower stress) escape route. If the stresses between the bullet and the barrel are kept below the sheer strength of the jacket material, that material
is not going to be ripped from the jacket and deposited within the barrel.

Terminal Performance

I wanted North Fork bullets to perform over the widest impact velocity range possible. The useable impact velocity range of a bullet is the velocity
at which the bullet first opens to the size of a useful, lethal mushroom, subtracted from the max impact velocity that the bullet can withstand and
still remain intact (i.e., one piece).

In other words, I wanted the bullet to open at low impact velocities AND remain intact at the maximum impact velocity that could be expected from
any specific caliber. There are many bullets on the market that will perform well in a narrow velocity range of as little as 300 to 400 f.p.s.

There are bullets in the North Fork product line that have a useful impact velocity range of 2000 f.p.s. Most will operate in the over 1500 f.p.s. range.
None will operate in less than a 1000 f.p.s. range, but that is mostly because guns or cartridges that can drive them fast enough to find out if they’ll
do more simply don’t exist.

When we talk about terminal performance, we also have to consider the balance between penetration and trauma inflicted. Now, the controversy over
this one will start more barroom brawls than “tastes great/less filling.” I’m not trying to fan any flames because the true believers on both sides of the
fence will never be swayed. Luckily for everyone, there are products out there to satisfy both camps.

My observation, based on several thousand impact tests, is that penetration and trauma inflicted are polar opposites. If you want more of either one,
you have to give up some of the other. Bullets that make small holes penetrate deep. Bullets that make big holes penetrate shallow.

At North Fork, we wanted maximum inflicted trauma with ENOUGH penetration. “Enough” is another loaded word that can have as many meanings as
there are people to define it. To me, “enough” means that the bullet always penetrates through the vitals of the animal and on to the hide on the far side.
Once it has reached the offside hide, it doesn’t matter to me whether it exits or not. The maximum amount of destruction to the vital organs has already
been done. For the record, I believe that it is a penetration failure if a bullet does not reach the offside hide, even from a 45-degree shot angle.

The large calibers are more likely to be found under the offside hide than the smaller calibers. There are two reasons why – the physical construction of
the animals they are used on and the impact velocities of those bullets. Where I have samples or photos of 15 or more large caliber bullets recovered
from larger African animals, the number of smaller calibers (284, 308, and 338) retrieved from animals (mostly raking shots on elk and moose) is so small
the whole lot of them could fit in the watch pocket of your Levis.

How to control penetration and trauma? By limiting the size of the mushroom. This is where the often over-worked marketing term “controlled expansion”
comes in. That term has been so overused, misused and otherwise abused that the customer usually places no credence in it whatsoever. That puts it in
the same category as the even more abused marketing term “premium.”

As I see it, controlled expansion means the expansion is STOPPED, not just in a narrow impact velocity range but over the entire range of impact velocity.
This requires a physical barrier to further expansion. If there is no physical barrier, there is no “controlled expansion,” at least by my definition of the term.

In a conventionally constructed bullet with a core that extends the full length (or nearly so) of the bullet, there is no way to limit the formation of the
mushroom and consequently no way to control penetration over a wide impact velocity range.


All bullets have a penetration profile. Picture a graph with the x (horizontal) axis representing impact velocity and the y (vertical) axis representing inches
of penetration. At low-impact velocities below the velocity that initiates expansion, ALL bullets will penetrate to a great depth, as long as they remain stable.

But this is irrelevant to outcome. An even slightly pointed expanding bullet that does not expand inflicts about as much trauma as stabbing the animal with
a hypodermic needle. The classic example of this is the animal that is shot at such a great distance that the bullet does not open and therefore inflicts no
immediately lethal trauma. The result, more often than not, is a wounded animal that is lost.

Back to the graph – once the conventional bullet begins to mushroom, the penetration is reduced by the drag of the mushroom. In a conventional bullet
(bonded or not) penetration continues to decline as the impact velocity increases.

Penetration of a North Fork bullet is also going to slow once expansion is initiated due to drag. The difference is that once the North Fork bullet reaches
a velocity of approximately 2100 f.p.s.,there is no more lead to feed the mushroom and it stops expanding.

How does that affect penetration? On our graph, the North Fork’s penetration, like other bullets, starts very high at impact velocities that do not cause
mushrooming. As the impact velocities increase and the bullet begins to mushroom, penetration decreases until the size of the mushroom stabilizes.
From that point on, as impact velocities increase, so does penetration.

So the graph shows a line that decreases until approximately 2100 f.p.s. and then the line reverses and continues to go up along with the impact velocity.
Somewhat counter intuitively when compared to conventional bullets, with North Fork bullets higher impact velocities result in increased penetration.

I often tell customers not to intentionally reduce the velocity of North Fork bullets if they are expecting increased penetration. If you are looking for more
penetration, reducing the velocity will not get you there.

Folks often ask why North Fork bullets, especially the larger calibers, are offered in unusual weights and sectional densities that are less than “traditional.”

Two reasons:

First, the limited amount of core, which allows us to control the size of the mushroom, means that the remaining weight of the bullet by necessity is made up
of the jacket material. Since jacket materials are approximately 80 percent as dense as lead, a bullet of “traditional” weight would be too long.

That in itself is problematic. Twist rate of a rifle doesn’t care about the weight of the projectile; it only cares about the length. A too-long projectile can be
unstable from a standard rate twist. That instability can show up in the air (accuracy) and/or in the animal (penetration). Either way, it renders the bullet useless.

An overly long bullet also robs available powder space from the cartridge. In some cartridges (the .416 Rigby, for example), this isn’t really a concern. But in
cartridges like the .416 Taylor and Remington, it is a problem.

The second reason North Fork bullets come in “non-traditional weights” goes back to velocity. An increase in weight would reduce velocity. In a North Fork bullet,
less velocity equals less penetration.

Our extensive testing over the years has shown us that a maximum sectional density of ~.305 gives the best balance of weight, powder room, velocity and
penetration FOR THE DESIGN OF THIS PARTICULAR BULLET.

When it comes to expanding bullets, speed kills and more speed kills better IF the bullet is up to the task structurally and there is no reduction in penetration.
The people who want to argue that point are basing their assumptions on conventionally constructed bullets (bonded or not) that have been the norm for 100 years.
For the newer generation of bullets – North Forks included – those assumptions no longer apply."



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Starman, I have had Aframes compress down into a pancake. Less than half the length of those pictured.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
Starman, I have had Aframes compress down into a pancake. Less than half the length of those pictured.


Same here. I like A-Frames a lot though. They are pretty danged good hunting bullets.

Did something poor happen to you with the Swift's? I haven't found their squishing down affect their killing ability, but I haven't taken a bunch of animals with them either.


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Originally Posted by BWalker
Starman, I have had Aframes compress down into a pancake. Less than half the length of those pictured.


If you could detail the circumstances in which that happened it would be helpful for discussion.
i.e.: impact velocity, cal., weight,target media, along with maybe a photo of the pancake... grin

BTW have you before seen this image of .416 bullets through water buckets?..

[Linked Image]

L > R: 400 Barnes X, 400 NF, 400 TBBC, 400 Woodleigh.

But more important than water buckets,the late George Hoffman had an extensive collection of .416 AFs recovered from cape buffalo.
His measurements typical indicated an average .80 - .85 in expanded dia. and 90% weight retention.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by BWalker
Starman, I have had Aframes compress down into a pancake. Less than half the length of those pictured.


I you could detail the circumstances in which that happened it would be helpful for discussion.
i.e.: impact velocity, cal., weight,target media, along with maybe a photo of the pancake... grin

BTW have you before seen this image of .416 bullets through water buckets?..

[Linked Image]

L > R: 400 Barnes X, 400 NF, 400 TBBC, 400 Woodleigh.

But more important than water buckets,the late George Hoffman had an extensive collection of .416 AFs recovered from cape buffalo.
His measurements typical indicated an average .80 - .85 in expanded dia. and 90% weight retention.



Great recovery pictures. Thank you for posting them up.


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For comparison, here are three North Fork bullets recovered from elk, deer and dirt at various ranges.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Left to right:
30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from dirt
(500 yards, 145.0 grains retained weight)

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from cow elk
(~25 yards, 133.2 grains retained weight)
This was a quartering away shot with bones broken along the way, near and far sides.

7mm 140 grain @ 3200fps, recovered from buck mule deer
(~150 yards, 131.2 grains retained weight)
This bullet went the length of the buck.



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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Those NF's never fail to impress me. Great recoveries.


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I have some 160 grain 7mm BBC bullets, that are from two different lots. And another package of 175's. One package of 160's has an obvious dimple or shallow hollow point in the tip, the other 160s and the 175s look like a FMJ with a slight flat point.
Did the design change during production? Is there any reason to prefer one over the other?

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Nah, I've got the same ones you're describing. They have all shot the same for me. I think he probably did change his techniques over the years but it wasn't very dreastic.


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