Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense

Yep, they all work!

The only real factor is the loose nut behind the trigger.

I would not be predicting penetration on SD alone, seen it not work that way many times.

That's a good link to have.

9mm has four loads at 90% or above

357 Mag has two loads at 90% or above

357 Sig has three loads at 90% or above

40 S&W has seven loads at 90% or above

45 ACP has eight loads at 90% or above

Hmmm......

Hmmm indeed.

I get that, but look at ballistic gel tests.

No it's not. Marshall And Sanow's work, or more correctly their conclusions are complete bunk.

Why is it that otherwise reletively intelligent people lose all common sense and critical thinking skills as soon as cartridges and killing come up? 100 pound deer take 150gr Ballistic Tips from a 300mag to the chest and run 100 yards, yet people think ANY pistol chambering is "powerful".


Here's a couple of clues-

ALL pistol chamberings poke holes. Those holes are not as big as the bullet diameter.

There are places and organizations that kill/killed more people before sunup in a single night than all of American LE will combined..... and they did/have done it for 15 years. There were literally only two that used something other than 9mm. Both have/are transitioning to 9mm.



Want some real info on terminal ballistics by someone that actually knows what they are doing?

Terminal Ballistic Performance Facts


Military Wound Ballistic History



Service Caliber Duty and Self Defense Handgun Ammo

If you think ANY handgun cartridge gives you a 90% chance of stopping someone in one round, you're going to be in a world of hurt if you find yourself in a gun fight.

No major LE agency in the world takes Evan marshals methodology seriously. In my opinion it's a highly flawed methodology.

I've looked at them and I've looked at the game I've taken and sectional density leaves a lot to be desired in predicting penetration. For instance the 185 grain XTP expands well it also does not expand as wide as does the 230 grain XTP. That matters in how far they penetrate.
Another example is the Hornady 220 grain Critical Duty load that out penetrates most if not all 230 grain JHPs.

Funny schit right there.

Please feel free to quote where I said I think that?

I did not link the paper, someone else did, I just read it with the data reported. Seemed interesting. Sorry it upsets you so much. By all means, carry what you like.

I'll say here what I always say about rifle bullets and hunting - shot placement is the single most important factor above all others.

Reliable shot placement is most dependent on practice and whether the shooter is comfortable with the pistol.

As for highly flawed ideas in this thread, sectional density is irrelevant now, if it ever was relevant at all. SD is meaningless with today's bullet options. Bullet design and construction are far more relevant.

Also, my simple test of shooting pigs in the head from very close range caused the 9mm Gold Dot to ricochet, while the 45/200 XTP produced deep penetration and a major wound. After seeing that with my own two eyes, I could care less how many sectional density numbers are put up, I know which one of those two is more likely to penetrate a skull.

They did not list the S&W 500. Not trustworthy information.

All pistol bullets can and will fail to penetrate skulls when impacting on anything other than a 90 degree angle. Ironically- 45 Auto as much as any of them. While you may have had that one time experience, a one off occurrence is meaningless. It happens often, even with 45 Auto.

I guess current theory is that it is possible due to reduced recoil to put 2-3 of the Euro pellets into the bad guys carcass, plus the newer euro pellets work "ok", plus you can have more of them at your disposal without reloading.

So one solid euro pellet hit is almost as good (based on the docgkr gel shooting and you might get two or three while having 12 spares. It is solid mathematics.

Form,

without doubt, pistols are weak.

The info shared is anecdotal data, nothing more nor less. Sharing anecdotal data sometimes reveals patterns or points to areas meriting further inquiry, sometimes not.

Bullet performance on animals is evidence to consider, not definitive, but certainly not to be ignored either. Just my perspective.

I'm not taking sides, but your tenure here is over 20x greater.

Yes, I like watching military videos of them woodpeckering the hell outta concrete walls with their 17 cal Gatling guns.

Seriously, I gotta believe a crackhead would "feel" a 45 ACP more than the smaller bore semi autos.

I think the larger bores/heavier bullets work better on oblique angle shots or those were major skeletal structures are hit.

I've had occasion to 'officially' shoot several dozen deer (and have witnessed about that many more) with various service calibers, from 38's through the 45 Auto. Many of these had been injured by autos, were caught in fences etc and when you walk up on them they get an adrenaline dump that makes crack look like cotton candy. Guess I have shot another dozen while hunting with 357, 44 Mags and the 45 Colt. They were generally unaware of danger unless I was running one down and finishing it after someone else didn't kill it outright with a rifle.

No question in my mind that big heavy handgun bullets will put one on the ground substantially fast than light/fast ones, all things being equal.

No doubt in my mind either and opinion come from shooting game over decades. Gel tests are fine for starters but hardly the definitive last word.

I've had the opportunity to see a lot of people who were shot and look at autopsy reports from folks who were shot while doing bad things. Handgun rounds from most legit defensive calibers suck. That being said, they tend to suck about the same. They are also very unpredictable. What I mean is they tend to take paths that no one could predict. Unless you make good contact with the central nervous system, there is no gaurantee of quick stops. Shots that create massive blood loss can be show stoppers, just not immediately.

Gunfights are won because we break the body or break there will to fight. 100ths of an inch in a projectile is way down on the list of what is important.