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#11726065 - 01/10/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
Dan_Chamberlain Online   content
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I've watched exactly "1" of that guy's vids before and turned it off before he was done. It's not difficult to tell he's someone who probably becomes more eloquent with each beer.
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#11726207 - 01/10/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
TNrifleman Online   content
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Registered: 09/24/04
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I watched a few of TYM's youtube videos and even subscribed briefly. He isn't someone I have interest in listening to.

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#11727404 - 01/10/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
Smac1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/24/16
Posts: 16
There are some great choices of ammo for the .45. Corbon has a 165 gr. 1250fps @ 575ft lbs. energy, Liberty has a 78gr. 1900fps @ 600 ft. lbs. I'll take these over a 9mm any day but that too is just my opinion.

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#11727442 - 01/10/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: viking]
BamBam Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 434
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By viking
It would be really interesting to learn what load and where it hit, in that shooting video that Bristoe posted yesterday.


.45 Federal 230 grain HST, Colt lightweight commander, he was hit twice.

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#11727505 - 01/10/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
SargeMO Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 866
Loc: MO
1911/45 is obsolete but I guess nobody this guy.

https://youtu.be/K2bXNg7ooAI



Edited by SargeMO (01/10/17)
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#11727515 - 01/10/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
cooper57m Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/26/13
Posts: 975
Loc: Shawangunkill River - NY
Originally Posted By GunGeek
Originally Posted By jimmyp
a 124 HST at 1200 out penetrates a 230HST at 950 in "wood, metal, etc.??
Yes it typically has greater penetration, but not by much. Not enough that I would ever feel like I was gaining some significant edge.


A little research on the internet of 9mm 124 & 147 gr. HST vs .45 230 gr. HST in ballistic gel yields the following avg. results:

9mm 124 gr. HST 15" penetration, .55" final expanded diameter
9mm 147 gr. HST 13" penetration, .63" final expanded diameter
.45 230 gr. HST 13" penetration, .88" final expanded diameter

All rounds meet the 12" to 18" penetration criteria set by the FBI for defensive use. So all rounds in the vitals = dead, dead & dead. Though 13" @ .88" diameter is a pretty big hole that is long enough to get to where it needs to go. Suck??? Hardly.
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#11727866 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: BamBam]
viking Offline
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4773
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By BamBam
Originally Posted By viking
It would be really interesting to learn what load and where it hit, in that shooting video that Bristoe posted yesterday.


.45 Federal 230 grain HST, Colt lightweight commander, he was hit twice.


Did any of the shots hit him in the pumpkin?
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#11727995 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: viking]
jimmyp Online   content
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Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 14346
Loc: Georgia
that sure was a smokey round. I cannot recollect the 230 grain HST smokin like that but have not fired them in front of a camera to record the smoke. That one and the 230 grain Gold dot I like, but again I am all about equal opportunity so the 147 grain HST I carry a lot as well.
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#11728001 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: viking]
BamBam Online   content
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 434
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By viking
Originally Posted By BamBam
Originally Posted By viking
It would be really interesting to learn what load and where it hit, in that shooting video that Bristoe posted yesterday.


.45 Federal 230 grain HST, Colt lightweight commander, he was hit twice.


Did any of the shots hit him in the pumpkin?


My brother, who spoke with the owner, shooter, asked him how many shots he fired he said five. He didn't ask him where he hit the guy. Three at the first guy, hit him twice two at the second guy. It looks like one shot possibly hit in the abdomen area? You can see him bend over slightly. , Second shot looks like chest, maybe face? If someone could Zoom in and slow the video down I'm sure it would give you a better perspective on where he got hit.

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#11728878 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: jimmyp]
Yondering Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/24/14
Posts: 1594
Loc: Skagit County, WA
Originally Posted By jimmyp
that sure was a smokey round. I cannot recollect the 230 grain HST smokin like that but have not fired them in front of a camera to record the smoke. That one and the 230 grain Gold dot I like, but again I am all about equal opportunity so the 147 grain HST I carry a lot as well.


If you're talking about the video Sarge posted, I noticed that too, although maybe it's dust from bullets hitting that column? Sure looks like gun smoke though; I wondered if the guy was using cast target bullet handloads or something. Not that it matters, just seems odd to have that much smoke, unless it's dust.

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#11729006 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
SargeMO Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 866
Loc: MO
I thought maybe a fluorescent light got busted during the melee. Those things make a cloud that looks similar to what's seen in the vid.

I have been in a few small spaces where multiple shots were fired and I never saw anything quite like the 'smoke' depicted late in the video.
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'What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak minded'

Retargument
N. 1. An argument characterized by excessive retardation.
2. A augment between two retards.
Internet Discussion Forums are a hotbed of Retargument.

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#11729134 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
Yondering Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/24/14
Posts: 1594
Loc: Skagit County, WA
That makes sense Sarge, I didn't think of a fluorescent light.

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#11729203 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
SargeMO Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 866
Loc: MO
I sat in on a 'community college' academy firearms class with a couple of my recruits a few years ago. I did this because the dufus instructor kept 'adjusting' the sights on my deputies guns.

Got that fixed PDQ, but the high point of the day was when Instructor Assclown (who had never been anywhere but Hootervile) was trying to demonstrate 'skip-fire' with buckshot and failed to note an uneven seam in the concrete floor. It must have sheared 4-5 pellets because the fragments took out a big four-tube overhead light fixture about 10' in front of him. This big cloud of glowing pixie dust appeared with the sound of falling glass, and just sorta enveloped him. The sight of this combined with his coughing and trying to evade the cloud is forever burned in my memory.

I can't think about it, even today, without laughing a little.
_________________________
'What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak minded'

Retargument
N. 1. An argument characterized by excessive retardation.
2. A augment between two retards.
Internet Discussion Forums are a hotbed of Retargument.

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#11729307 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
Dan_Chamberlain Online   content
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Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 6393
Loc: Illinois, by Missouri
Dust from the concussions. Not smoke.
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#11729458 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 13596
Loc: NW Louisiana
Barrel length and placement matters, but this might help. Also, there may be some difference in how soon one stops with xyz, but it's hard to quantify, and one will never know, unless they have an event.........

I do feel ammo matters - a good bit.....as well as placement.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4593
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#11730039 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
local_dirt Offline
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Registered: 12/11/13
Posts: 5771
Loc: south of south
Wonder if he hit the other Nigerian..
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#11730122 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: 65BR]
viking Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 4773
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By 65BR
Barrel length and placement matters, but this might help. Also, there may be some difference in how soon one stops with xyz, but it's hard to quantify, and one will never know, unless they have an event.........

I do feel ammo matters - a good bit.....as well as placement.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4593


Good read. I used to carry the Remington GS load in my 45.
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Glocks remind me of an old German farm wife, kinda thick but will work night and day.

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#11730287 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
Rooster7 Online   content
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Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 5489
Loc: Minnesota
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.







Edited by Rooster7 (01/11/17)
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#11730365 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: Rooster7]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 16722
Loc: The Hawkeye State
Originally Posted By Rooster7
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.






Its called a CNS hit or basically a structural bone hit, besides the central nervous system.

Cant tell you how many heart or lung shot deer Ive seen go past the 200 yard mark with a 50-72 caliber hole in them.

The ones that collect shoulder, backbone, neck or rear shoulders, even when non vital, can be incapacitated.
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#11730494 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: HawkI]
GunGeek Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 21768
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By HawkI
Originally Posted By Rooster7
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.






Its called a CNS hit or basically a structural bone hit, besides the central nervous system.

Cant tell you how many heart or lung shot deer Ive seen go past the 200 yard mark with a 50-72 caliber hole in them.

The ones that collect shoulder, backbone, neck or rear shoulders, even when non vital, can be incapacitated.



Works the same way with two legged varmints. I've treated MANY chest shot patients. Even got to a couple quick enough before they coded. Shot through the heart and lasted a minute or two after the fact. With a loaded gun, you can do a LOT of bad things in just 30 seconds.

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#11730499 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: Mannlicher]
GunGeek Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 21768
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By Mannlicher
I don't believe for a moment, that a 230 grain .45 HP sucks for defense purposes (or for offence either)
End of discussion.
I have always considered it the benchmark for self defense performance. No it's not perfect, but it ain't far from it either.

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#11730500 - 01/11/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: Smac1]
GunGeek Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 21768
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By Smac1
There are some great choices of ammo for the .45. Corbon has a 165 gr. 1250fps @ 575ft lbs. energy, Liberty has a 78gr. 1900fps @ 600 ft. lbs. I'll take these over a 9mm any day but that too is just my opinion.








So you choose a .45 ACP and then go with high velocity lightweight loads? Seems a bit counter intuitive.

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#11730762 - 01/12/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: GunGeek]
Dan_Chamberlain Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 6393
Loc: Illinois, by Missouri
GG, I agree a bit, but if you drive a larger caliber (already expanded) to similar velocities, it can't hurt - pardon the pun.

I prefer 230 grains, but since a 124 grain 9mm hits the bricks at about 1200 to 1300, why shouldn't a 160 grain .45 at similar velocities be - at a minimum - just as good?
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"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain

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#11731087 - 01/12/17 Re: Why the .45 ACP "sucks" for self defense [Re: Rooster7]
Savuti Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 1662
Loc: Collier Co. Florida
Originally Posted By Rooster7
I am a novice with handguns and CCW. Didn't see any need before but am getting more education.

I have read countless info as to what is better than what and I correlate it back to hunting. Shot placement is KEY!

However,

Back in the days of party hunting with 10 or so people, I've seen a couple deer full of adrenaline from being driven/jumped, take chitt loads of hits in the vitals and everywhere else in the body with 12ga slugs and keep going like they haven't been touched. You find them later full of holes.

I equate this to a human on drugs/bath salts etc. If they don't go down right away, you better be aiming between the eyes or behind the ear.




It's called a Mozambique drill, or at least it was called that back when I started playing at IPSC back in 1980. Now I think it's called a failure drill.
Draw and fire 2 rounds CoM, stop just long enough to peek over the sights, and if the target is not collapsing, put round no. 3 between the eyes.

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