Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Hunter Ed - NY, some observations

I took my daughter to one of the NY hunter education classes last weekend. We were there for about 14 hours total. There was homework that had to be completed before staring the class. We spent 2 - 3 hours completing it. Daughter scored 98 on her test and was irritated that she missed a question. Some observations:

-There is now one website used to register for every class statewide.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/7860.html

-The classes fill up very fast but I learned from my daughter's instructor that there are always no-shows and the instructors will take walk-ins if the prospective student has completed the homework.

-13 of the 32 students in the class were female.

- Only about 1/3 of the class were under the age of 20. The oldest seemed to be in his '70s.

-Daughter had to load and fire two rounds from a 20 gauge. They had her use a beak open single shot that had no recoil pad. She didn't appreciate the recoil.

We were taught some interesting stuff:

-The flight path of a bullet can be described as its "projectory".

- A bullet rises out of the muzzle before starting to come back down.

- Nine out of 10 times a deer that has been shot will circle back to the hunter to see what all the ruckus was about. Usually they will do this in a counter clockwise direction.

-The instructor held up a Butt-Out tool and said. "A butt-plug is very useful in field dressing a deer". He kept going, twice more referring to a butt plug. I was trying hard not to LOL. I had to put my face down on the table to stifle the giggles.

I'm glad the I was finally able to get my daughter into a class. She is an athlete and sports have always been her priority. We are looking forward to the youth hunt next October.

"A bullet rises out of the muzzle before starting to come back down"


If I had a dime for every time I heard that....

It does rise but they never mention that it rises (in relation to the earth) because the barrel is tilted upwards.

Cha ching

Yep, rises above the line of sight. That's why the rear sight is taller then the front sight.

If the muzzle is slightly elevated (as if maybe for the bullet reach the plane of the scope at 100, 200 yards) it will.

So a bullet rises above boreline after it leaves the muzzle?

No, not above the bore line, but not many want to start out 1 1/2 inch below the scope and go down from there

So, once again, a bullet DOES NOT rise after it leaves the bore.

I had similar experiences when I sat through it with both my daughters. My favorite was the retired sheriff, who owned the local gun store, who told the class that the rate of fire for an AR was so fast that it was possible to get 15-16 bullets traveling down the barrel at the same time.

Over all though, you have to remember the people teaching those MANDATORY classes are all volunteers who give of their own time and money in some cases to keep our tradition alive. For that they all have my respect.

OH CRAP, YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS.
It's too early for this chit.

WOW. Gravity defying bullets now. What will they think of next?

Well, it is ridiculous to say "every" bullet does that when it is common knowledge that bullets from a 7mm Rem. Magnum shoot flat for 200 yards and then rise up a bit...

Super-high, physics-defying scope rings that magically flatten trajectories.

Every ballistics program shows that if you sight in at 100 yards with your 500wizmag, that the trajectory at 50 yards is like +.6"

So obviously, the bullet raised.


Law of fizziks.

I have a rifle that really does that... but the bullet goes so fast that you can't see it. Its custom!!!

NO -- the scope is pointed down, so you are pointing the barrel up when you shoot in relation to the sight plane.

Think before you ask these things !

Facetious question.

If you shoot anything at 500 yards with iron sights you can literally see the bullet wake (air turbulence) raise above your sight plain and drop into the target.

Heck when you make adjustments on things shot past 1500 yards or so you have to understand that the bullet is dropping into the target and your "clicks" adjustment gets all crazy because part of the click moves the bullet past the target... but only really crazy long haul shooters have played with that enough to know.

Newbs !

I know an instructor family just like that... the arrogance was amazing, they were book learned and had NO clue about real life. Evidently not very well book learned either.

I enjoyed teaching hunter ed for many years here. But there was this one town full of hoodlums..... but they were at least just teenagers..

I've assisted teaching a few times and quit due to the stupidity of the main teacher.

There is only one guy i'd help, and he is now deceased.

On a side note, I watched a 70 year old about pass out the other day in amazement when my buddy walked up while they were about to saw off a deers tail while skinning it and simply pull his piranta out and slice it off at a joint.... they'd never seen that and thought it impossible... they'd have really been amazed to watch me take complete moose apart with a short bladed piranta and no saw. Heck I dont' even think we keep a saw in camp that I"m aware of....

My son took his class this past summer. I learned a few things as well.

One of them was that to point you muzzle in a safe direction, means to "point it towards that area that will cause the least amount of property damage."

My 11 year old son just turned around and looked at me. He already knew that was dumb.

Correct...it rises above the line of sight, not bore line.


But to the OP...I have heard sillier things from the mouths of supposedly 'professional' shooters. My personal favourite being the fellow that had to stop shooting 'roos with a .243 because it was still rising at 400 yards and didn't start dropping 'til 700...but wait for it, he sights in at 100 yards (actually 50 yards, as I have watched him)


And if you want to hear some seriously cringe-worthy tales then chat with those in the military or coppers, occasionally you strike one that is switched on but most are so ill-informed that you simply won't believe the stupidity.

I ain't the one not thinking.

I work with a guy who claims to shoot "long distance matches", even though he didn't know what F class was.

His Savage in 7mm Mag is better than any custom and he's deadly out to 2000 meters. He's about as good as his regular job too.

Wow. I"m amazed. I"ll have to learn how to shoot longer distances correctly I guess.

Time for a drink, ain't gonna get any better... lol

Sounds like he has relatives here.


The part that really irritates me is that I cannot work out if they really believe this rubbish or they just think I am stupid enough to go for it.


So I go with the big country hick response..." is that right".

I'd be inclined to compose a list and route it to the state director.

Hope you can find time to get the daughter out.

lmao

I was keeping that in mind, held my tongue and didn't challenge any of his assertions. He got the safety parts of the course correct. I figured that was good enough. I do have a lot of respect for the volunteers. They donate countless hours to making new hunters.

Only in the southern hemisphere, if you're shooting west.

i wouldn't admit to owning one of those super loud whatnots.
not to mention wrong caliber.

I took the Hunter's Safety course in Utica when I lived there from a guy who hunted extensively - deer, rabbits, birds and such, and hunted everything including deer from a stand with a 12 gauge double barrel. He was a decent instructor but didn't know diddly about rifles. Have to mitigate that by adding that we were in the "shotgun only" zone of NY, rifles for deer are only allowed in the northern half of the state. (or were in 1988 when I took the course)

a matter of opinion I guess.
like the one i heard in one of these classes.
semiauto's are more reliable and more jamfree than a revolver.

I sat through hunter's ed with my oldest son so that I knew what I had to correct. All in all, it was not too bad, and I admired the amount of time and effort the instructor had gone to in terms of developing and acquiring teaching materials.

You are referring, of course, to the military and coppers of your own insignificant country.


mike r

On a side note, they are idiots for not at least having a pad on that 20gauge single shot.

I'd have told him, for every shot my kid has to fire, I'm punching you in the back of the head.

I took my kids through the NY Hunter safety course a couple years ago. It was a sad JOKE. First night the " instructor" opened with running a you tube add for the company he works for, and then announcing he would be selling raffle tickets for Air rifles ( was selling tickets to 12 year olds). Next night the "assistant instructor" gave us a demonstration in " safe gun handling" and proceed to sweep the muzzle of his shotgun over us in the class ! Then on Test day the "instructor" set up a table with a variety of knives he was selling as part of his retail business, oh and the test was never administered! HE simply told my daughter " you think you would have passed right?"

I complained to Albany and the regional director held a unique 1 day class for my kids so they could at least be tested and demonstrate Theiler knowledge.

Ya know none of this is true.

All you have to do to get your bullet to raise above the bore is to spin the turret in the "up direction"... that's because the scope is bending the back of the barrel and pitching the bore in an upward direction.

Scopes bend the barrel down so the bullet flys up more, that's why we bed scopes these days- good mechanical contact is required to bend the barrel just the right amount.

Some scopes (typically leupold) are harder to get good metallic contact with, so when you spin them the barrel doesn't bend the right amount and the scope gets blamed for not tracking...

. Just in case anyone didn't get the obvious... you must be [bleep]'n me read on this post.

Ok seriously now - we all know that when you spin turrets actually moves the target, not the rifle.

This is why a deer doesn't know the difference between a 223 AI, and a 30-06, they feel the scope moving the deer a whole bunch more than the impact of a bullet.

This is alway the cause of many missed shots- some of the scope manufactures don't test on real deer, the test on deer simulations, and they don't move and stretch as much as real deer.

Next time you do a tracking test, go look at the target and you will note - the rifle never moved, but the bullet hit in a different place - you got it folks, the TARGET is moving.

Come on people. .

the scary thing is -

In gun smithing school, they taught us that a bore is never straight when it's compared to how the barrel is oriented, then demonstrated it on the lathe by putting a guide rod in it and spinning it.

THEN they told us the best smith practice is to mount the barrel indexed in a way that the bore as it leaves the rifle is pointing UP !!!

I [bleep] you not !

So ... considering we're really talking about bore alignment - nope, it goes straight.
BUT the bore is often angled up as it leaves the barrel.

Not to mention the bore to sight plane converge at the target so if your sighting in in over 200 yards the bore is pointing up to counter the 1.5" between the bore line and the sight line.

So - Yeah

Not quite. Rifles were legal in the Catskills {Southern part of the state} in 1988 too. Shotgun zone was across central and Western NY.

Tune in next week as we attempt to "Converse with Counter Jockeys."

Bet those guys work behind the counter at a local gun store in the "off season" when they're not "educating" young hunters...


Seems to be about the level of "expertise" at a typical LGS...

DF

A girl friend took my daughter to her class.
Then They could both get them.
Ex Navy Seal.
Only 2 students
Said he would take as long as was needed.
Showed all types of firearms.
Was great.
Southern Calif 25 years ago.
Free.
Don was great.

Rising bullet only works out of a 270.

Thank you,

W. Bill

Sounds like that guy knew his stuff, in contrast to the OP's "experts"..

DF

I'd agree with that.

When we do our range sessions, the kids do a 20 gauge pump (padded) at clays, 50 cal muzzleloader at paper, a 10/22 at paper, and a 223 at water filled milk jugs. They have to shoot at least one firearm and can opt out of one or more arms if they think it's too much. We could actually get by with a pellet rifle or BB gun, as is the case with some city classes that have no ranges available.

I wish we had a 410 as opposed to a 20. I can look at our paper targets after a class and tell you which group of kids started out with the shotgun. It's too much for some of those little 80 pounders and half of them have their eyes closed and flinch horribly if their first session was behind that shotgun.

Another issue we see frequently is left eye dominant kids that have been incorrectly started as right handers. If one is a parent out there, do asses eye dominance before ones child is even introduced to a BB gun. There are several different tests one can go though, but the easiest is to just hand a kid a scope, range finder, or camera with no instructions and see which eye they innately go to.

Been doing classes for just over 25 seasons. It is really fun to see some of them turn on. I must say, however, that young ladies are more attuned to accepting instructions, and they're typically much better shots. Hand the 10/22 to young male, and his goal is rapid fire. Hand it to a young lady, and she tries to do a bull's eye each time.

my 270 shoots flat out to 700 yards. then it goes into heat seeking mode. and thats with the corelokt 130's. them fancy $30/box rounds are satellite guided. and thats no schit. i heard it at my LGS so i know its true.

I heard that too!🌈🌈🌈🌈🌨

The trend now is less hours. I have taught Hunter Ed since 98 in CA, VA and now NC. We started at 10 hours with range time, then no range 10 hrs and now it is 6 hrs with online pre course, some cut to 6 hrs and took nothing out and the instructors are forced to "teach the test". Some states have complete online courses with a 2 hr firearms demo and test.

It truly is all over the map on the courses but they are trying to work towards a standard. VA requires Hunter Ed instructors to go thru a 2 1/2 day certification course with 14 additional courses to follow in different aspects of hunting such as survival, muzzleloaders, trapping etc. Those follow on training days are semi-annually as a minimum. Other states have no training requirements for instructors. A lot of states are looking at the VA model.

Part of the problem is the area coordinator in some cases is alone and has to cover 15 counties to try and monitor courses and instructors.

I have seen some very good instructors and some that do not know anything.

Yes, which must be the reason you lot keep getting us involved every time you step outside.

Can't you just forget to ring us next time.

I mean seriously, we only have around 30,000 full time personnel and around 17,000 weekend warriors in a country of near 24,000 000 so we can't be of that much use.

What, are you scared of the dark or something

I've come to believe there are anti hunter implications in the hunter safety program in NY. Safety education does not require that many hours over multiple days. Youngsters simply don't have the attention span.
Much of the BS mentioned are the result of instructors struggling to fill the required hours.
I have attended/participated in these things going back to 1965 or 66.
Here in NY, there is an equally bloated additional course required for an archery license. New for this year, a $30 charge.
In summary, no substitute for a little focused education plus some mentored real world experience and a little common sense.

I completely agree with this. I believe that the safety aspects of the sport could be taught and taught well in 7 - 8 hours, bowhunting included. An 11 year old doesn't need to know about the Pittman Robertson Act!

Thats why its hunter education in TX, not simply hunter safety.

I"ve always thought ANY education is much better if you know background and history involved, to a small extent anyway, rather just just know how... because someone told you so.... comment RE pittman robertson.. yeah its not safety, but its protection/argument... someone jumps on you, you have the knowledge to say we pay our own way, and not just for animals conservation taht we hunt, but many we don't hunt...

Well rounded is a good thing, IMHO.

Actually yours are included at your country's request so that they can gain experience from a professional military. No one would notice if they were absent. Not unlike yourself.


mike r

Have it your way if you like.

If the instruction is sheit,classes are hard to get into, and the procedures are dumb.......volunteer to teach a class.

I can't comment on NY but the amount of time spent in class and the inclusion of the Pittman-Robertson act is a good thing in my opinion.

In CO our class is 12 hours including the written test and live fire, which is 10 rounds with a bolt action .22 LR. All we're looking for is safe firearm handling. We cover a lot of different stuff, some of which can save a life like survival and some of which (safe firearms handling) is mandatory if they're going to be handling firearms in the field. Plus small game, waterfowl, big game, how to recognize good habitat, regulations, our draw system, ethics, shot placement, field dressing, care of game in the field, and on and on.

Youngsters in our classes almost always have the required attention span. I think I've taught close to 1K students and I can't remember one not passing the test and it's 50 questions. We had an 8 year-old get 100%. If they can't pay attention for the short time we have 'em then we're either doing something wrong or you have to wonder if they're mature enough and ready to hunt.

Because it requires that they be able to manage a deadly weapon.

As far as Pittman Robertson, no, they don't need to remember the name of it, when it was passed, or the amount of the excise tax. What they do need to know is through it, license fees, and Dingell-Johnson, hunters and fishermen pay the freight for wildlife and habitat management, whereas PETA and HSUS pay zero for it.

That is invaluable information if they ever get into a discussion with an ignorant teacher or classmate who's an anti.



This has nothing to do with the length of the class, it just means you have crappy instructors. We can't get to all the stuff we'd like to teach, and there's no fluff in the curriculum. In fact, when we're done on the last night, lots of students stay after the class to ask questions and get advice on stuff we couldn't get to.



My sentiments exactly.

Uh, Spot...I think it's time for you to put all that sh_t down and pick up your smokepole...there's hope.

nice pitcher

I've been teaching HS for over a decade. Nearly 2K graduates so far. Things changed dramatically when the State passed a "no minimum" hunting age, where prior it was 12 years old. Now we have kids as young as 7 taking the course - and we HAVE to take all comers. The State didn't change the test or the book to accommodate these younger kids, so we took it upon ourselves to adapt the course for easier, see, touch, use sort of learning.

We do not charge a dime. We teach in a team setting with different stations so the kids get a completely "hands on" approach instead of someone reading out of a book. These 20 minute stations include: live fire shooting trap with youth Rem 11-87 20ga 7/8 oz loads, .22 rifle, .22 pistol, archery with youth Genesis bows, they learn to climb a ladder stand with a harness and Prussic, cross a fence and creek with a gun-both solo and with someone else, muzzleloader demo, some rudimentary First-Aid, how to handle a compass, watch a real deer gutting video, hear from someone who's fallen out their tree stand along with vid and xrays, hear from a Conservation Officer about the law, and hammer in the 10 Commandments of gun safety.

It all takes about 3 evenings with about 3-4 hours each. THEN, we do the comprehensive test review. We're more concerned that they apply it and do it right than a test score.

We all hope these kids turn into lifetime hunters and rifle looneys, but this is not the time or place to try and teach about ballistic coefficient and all that blather.

This.

They'll ruin a kid for life, especially the small ones. They get rocked by that recoil and they never want to shoot again. We use gas 20 gauges with light 7/8 loads. There are times as an RSO during live fire that I'm actually hanging onto the receiver for these kids to reduce weight and recoil for them. Some are simply too small and shouldn't shoot until they get a little bigger. No kid HAS to shoot in our program. WE encourage it, but don't force it.

I can't image this question has been asked before

Hence da picture

Question is are you sighted in for 45 yards, or 200 - the answer is "YES"

Last fall we had the kids lined up along the firing line to take turns shooting 10 rounds of .22 cal. Among them dad, son, middle school age, and daughter, quite a bit younger, but just a tiny little thing, not very tall skinny as a pole, cute as a bug's ear.

The boy did fine and I look over and see dad with the little girl, and he's trying to talk her into shooting, she was not enthused. Dad ended up going first and after that actually got the girl to agree. Few minutes later, I look over and there is the girl against the back wall with dad, shaking her flushed red face from side to side.

I asked dad what happened and I guess the very first shot an ejected shell went down her cowboy boot and that was it! LOL We passed her because she isn't required to shoot anyway, and she did pass the written portion. I gave her a few little shooting trinkets and a few sets of fresh ear plugs. She left with a cautious smile, but I'm not sure when she'll let her dad take her to the range again.

Having an 8 year old go through Hunter's Ed is akin to taking them shopping for their prom dress/tux.

I agree completely. I am a former HS instructor, I quit when the state started making us take anyone who could walk in the door. We tried requiring parental participation for anyone under 14, but even that got shot down.

After siting through two Hunter Ed courses, two bowhunting ed courses and a trapper ed course with my two kids I was tempted to get certified. I didn't have time when the kids were young. My experience was the same as the OP's, I heard some interesting stuff . My hat is off to you gentleman here who are donating your time to teach people the right way.

Agree fully with that, but Oregon too has no minimum age requirement. If 9 or less, however, they must have an adult at their elbow throughout the course. I try to discourage the super young, unless it's a bright kid that's simply champing at the bit to get out there. I'd venture our student manual is written at about a 16 year old level, so one has to spend a lot time defining terms like projectile, discharge, anatomy, etc.

In almost every instance it's a dad that is pushing the extremely young. We do have a mentoring program where kids can go and shoot on the accompanying adults tag without having done Hunter Ed.

Kids, however, can not hunt on their own big game tag until they hit 12 years. One of my greatest frustrations is I've been trying since 1975 to pull one of Oregon's bighorn tags. I've had two 12 year old students draw with their first application. Life's just not fair.

You would expect hunters education to teach people about 20 MOA rails, which point the scope down so you can still zero your scope.

Heck for that, there are plenty of normal hunters that don't know which way sight planes work anyway.