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I picked up some IMR4451 to try in my 7-08. I looked up Hodgdons data on it and it brought up a question.

I am shooting Sierra's 140 grain Pro Hunter. Hodgdon lists data for 139 grain Hornady's, and 140 grain Swifts. I did do some testing with H414, H4895, and H4350. I used the 140 grain data to start with but was not seeing any pressure signs even when sitting at the top end of what Hodgdon lists for the 140 grain Swift.

I know that data is based on quite a few factors, weight being a major one, but in this case we are talking about a 1 grain difference, which in a lot of cases can even vary bullet to bullet in a box. So, logic seems to say that the differences must be on bullet construction/bearing surface.

I would tend to think that my Sierra's are closer to Hornady than the Swifts correct? I would go off the data that Sierra lists, but they conveniently do not have any for 4451. In fact, they don't list data for H4350 or H414(although they do list it for 760). If you cross reference Sierra and Hodgdon, the loads seem to favor the Hodgdon data on the Hornady bullet more so than the Swift.

So, I know you always start low and work up, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing something in my thinking that the Hodgdon data for the Hornady bullet would be more appropriate than the Swift data.

I'm hoping that I can find a good node with the velocity I was seeing with H4350.

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7mm-08= R15/Varget/4064


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Originally Posted by dvdegeorge
7mm-08= R15/Varget/4064


Maybe I did not state my question well enough?

Hodgdon lists two different MAX loads for IMR4451(which is the only powder I am going to be working with right now). With the 139 grain and 140 grain bullets.

Most handloaders will tell you its not wise to go over book MAX(even though some do in small increments).

The 139 grain data is 44.0 grains to start, and 47.4 grains MAX

The 140 grain data is 42.3 grains to start, and 45.5 grains MAX

There is a BIG difference between 45.5 grains and 47.4 grains. IF you did not see any pressure signs at say 46, or 46.5, would you keep going? I fully plan to start low, but its the quandary of what MAX do I look to stay under/around?

I fully understand its all based on pressure/signs, but at some point even without pressure signs its not a good idea to go so far I would think.

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I'd be staring at my chronograph pretty hard, and once I got to 2800fps I'd really start paying attention.


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I have run into even more extreme variations between different data sources with the same powders. My approach is to start low (but not usually with the lowest load) and work my way up. When I get close to the the accuracy I want, I let the chronograph tell me if I can go farther.

Likewise, if the chronograph tells me that one of the top loads is significantly faster than the book shows, I will back down to something approaching the maximum velocity shown for that powder and bullet combination. Differences between chambers, barrels and the brand of brass, primers and bullets will all cause variations. It's actually a bit unusual for me to see my powder charges and velocities end up very close to what the reloading manual says they will be.


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Originally Posted by JGRaider
I'd be staring at my chronograph pretty hard, and once I got to 2800fps I'd really start paying attention.


The Chrony will for sure be setup the whole time. If I got a 2800fps I would be floored, and honestly be VERY nervous. With my 18" barrel I would be excited to get 2650fps without pressure signs.

On a high note, I sent in a question form on Hodgdons website this morning asking about my situation. I was floored when they just responded a few mins ago. I have rarely ever had such a quick response from an online submission form. They have just earned a 5 star in my book for customer service, even if they cant keep H4350 in the States for us.......

Anyways, they did suggest I could use the data for the Hornady bullet. I really figured as much, and I will still be watching things closely, but at least I do have a little better feeling that I can work up to the 47.4 MAX load.

With all the reading I've done it seems that 4451 is supposed to compete very closely to H4350. And it seems that people are finding that it does do very well to H4350 loads when 1 grain below them(this is all relative of course).

The sweet spot load I found with H4350 this weekend was at 47.5 grains. So it would be interesting to see what kind of results I get with the 4451.


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Originally Posted by mudhen
I have run into even more extreme variations between different data sources with the same powders. My approach is to start low (but not usually with the lowest load) and work my way up. When I get close to the the accuracy I want, I let the chronograph tell me if I can go farther.

Likewise, if the chronograph tells me that one of the top loads is significantly faster than the book shows, I will back down to something approaching the maximum velocity shown for that powder and bullet combination. Differences between chambers, barrels and the brand of brass, primers and bullets will all cause variations. It's actually a bit unusual for me to see my powder charges and velocities end up very close to what the reloading manual says they will be.


True, but the problem I run into with this particular gun is the barrel length is so far away from what most test barrels are. Velocity is not going to be a very good indicator in this case. There is almost no way I am going to be even coming close to book velocity let alone exceeding it without major pressure issues. I'll have to rely on other pressure indications.

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Your experience with contacting Hodgdon duplicates mine. Good people.

Hopefully Mule Deer will chime in. I know he's converted many of his loads over to the Endurons, and recall him saying they've been as good or better than prior loads.

I have some 4451 I haven't been able to play with yet.

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Swifts often want less powder than other similar weight bullets. Their copper jackets are "grabbier" in the bore than the more commonly encountered gilding metal jackets.

On top of that the Interlocks have bearing surfaces toward the short end of the scale which reduces pressure.

Combine those two factors and the discrepancy you're seeing is readily explained.

If you're careful working up with the Sierras they'll come out pretty close to the Hornady numbers.

The node you're looking for may not land on the same velocity as you found with H4350. They're located more by barrel time than speed.

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Sorry Newt, forgot about the 18" bbl.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Swifts often want less powder than other similar weight bullets. Their copper jackets are "grabbier" in the bore than the more commonly encountered gilding metal jackets.

On top of that the Interlocks have bearing surfaces toward the short end of the scale which reduces pressure.

Combine those two factors and the discrepancy you're seeing is readily explained.

If you're careful working up with the Sierras they'll come out pretty close to the Hornady numbers.

The node you're looking for may not land on the same velocity as you found with H4350. They're located more by barrel time than speed.


You stated something I forgot to put in my original post. I did some *ruff measuring of the bearing surface between the Hornady and the Sierra last night. They are very close to each other.

Not having a swift to measure I could not tell about them, but their website states they are about the same length as the Hornady. Having the copper inner part means they have to make up for the weight somewhere else. My theory is they have a much longer bearing surface than the Hornady's or Sierra's.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Swifts often want less powder than other similar weight bullets. Their copper jackets are "grabbier" in the bore than the more commonly encountered gilding metal jackets.

On top of that the Interlocks have bearing surfaces toward the short end of the scale which reduces pressure.

Combine those two factors and the discrepancy you're seeing is readily explained.



This ^^^ explains why different bullets of the same weight end up with different loads. The solid copper bullets will throw another twist in sometimes as well.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider
Sorry Newt, forgot about the 18" bbl.


Yea, that was one of those things I struggled with the most when I was deciding what gun to get. I went back and forth a lot on barrel length. I almost got a 20" barreled gun, but in the end it came down to the rest of the features of the gun and I really wanted the most compact gun I could get.

I knew I would be giving up velocity, but I figured I could meet my goal of 2550fps with 140 grain bullets from everything I was reading. Anything around that with good accuracy and I'll be smiling.

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The difference in the two loads is reasonable since the 139 Hornady has a much shorter bearing surface than the 140. If you look up Mule Deer's Handholds That Work, he states that the 139 Hornady can handle a couple of grains more powder due to shorter bearing surface. Personal experience has proven him correct.

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Originally Posted by LeonHitchcox
The difference in the two loads is reasonable since the 139 Hornady has a much shorter bearing surface than the 140. If you look up Mule Deer's Handholds That Work, he states that the 139 Hornady can handle a couple of grains more powder due to shorter bearing surface. Personal experience has proven him correct.


If your referring to the article I think you are, I actually read it before trying the H4350. In fact, it was why I went ahead and tried it in spite of the fact I did not have much left in the can.

I did not read where he states it can handle more powder because of the shorter bearing surface, just that it could though.

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I use IMR 4350 in mine, not as fast as some powders, but accurate.

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TwoTon, you'll have to tell us how your loads work out for you.

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Originally Posted by NTG
TwoTon, you'll have to tell us how your loads work out for you.


Well, not how I had hoped actually. But they show some promise. I think its more my fault than the powder really though. However, as far as my quandary goes, using the data Hodgdon has for the 139 Hornady bullet is fine for the Sierra.

I worked up past MAX, something I have never done before, in hopes of reaching a higher velocity. All it did was create a bigger fireball in front of me, and accuracy was nill. I never saw pressure signs, but I cannot say I am unhappy about that either. It could have been the next 10th of a grain that showed them. I have never worked up past a MAX load before and cannot say I ever will again. Too nerve racking. I have ALWAYS found accuracy loads below MAX.

What dawned on me after I actually sat for a minute was that I was trying to chase decent velocity, but not paying attention to what was happening. I normally setup my chrony 10' or so in front of the barrel. This works most of the time, but I think once you start shooting a fire breathing dragon it starts to interfere with the readings. I normally load a LOT of cast and very little jacketed.

Factory loads read fine, and the H4350 loads were reading fine - up till I start going over what I would consider the "usable powder" volume. Velocities would increase up to a point and then act all crazy. I just figured it was light or something and didn't give it a real consideration as accuracy was going down anyways.

Then, yesterday, the same thing happened with 4451. Velocity was just OK, not near like I wanted or what H4350 was giving - at least what I can gather. What was happening was the muzzle blast was interfering. I am next to positive of it after thinking for a while. I remember several times seeing the chrony move around after a shot. I remember thinking the bullet must be really moving fast......but now I understand it was gases.

So, I have learned a good lesson. Took a while to sink in, but at least it did. At least I still have group size/POI to compare and look at.

It looks like ~46.5 grains is going to get me where I want. Not as much velocity as I want - at least I don't think - but it will work. I loaded a few more to test today and I'll be moving the chrony out to 15'.

I hate to have so many threads going, so I will be updating my original thread from now on. I just started this thread specifically to find out what data I should be looking at to load the Sierra bullet with. Which, after looking back, I may have to revisit H414 if I find 4451 not to my liking. I was using the lower START/MAX other 140 grain bullet, which I know I can use the 139 grain now.


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