Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting In defense of Texas hunting leases

There was an individual I know here that has 5000 acres and decided to fence it along with getting private preserve classification. Good Pa Mountain country.

It wasn't to be a commercial operation. Just for himself and friends. He also allowed the GC to do studies on the property. Went and somehow obtained some Deer from up in Canada that had the hog genetics. Since he was paying for the studies, I guess the GC obtained them. Managed the property for food with timber cutting rotation and planting.

After a more than a few years he and the GC decided the big hogs genetics needed to be eliminated as best as possible. They were tearing up the smaller and younger Bucks something awful and in fact some of the smaller ones killed or tore themselves up bad trying to escape thru the fence.

Haven't crossed paths with him in some time, but would like to know what is now going on at the place.

Have you ever raised any animals? At all?

The answer is in there. Nature gives the best an appearance. And its teh best tool we ahve to work with.

As noted I've SEEN how this helps herds.

Those that have not seen it may never see it I suppose.

Comparing animals to humans gets no where in my books. I've certainly seen family genes that never should have been passed along. But we can't do that to humans...

Yes, its a hit list for sure. Just like we cull out cattle that are not promising. I've not problem with it being a hit list. Its no different than targeting older does that are no longer producing when you thin the herd out.

I fail to see how this is simply about antlers. Its for the best of the herd, and along the way you end up with better antlers at times.

Just my take.

Sounds like a numbers management issue to me

To date I still don't understand hunting seasons. Why can rifle season only be open for 2 weeks in some states?

Your right to believe what you want. I also have seen in Pa the positive benefit on horn quality antler restrictions have brought about. My point was we don't know the long term results when a species is managed primarily for one physical characteristic.

Cows are a domestic managed for meat, milk or bucking. Screw up and you get to start over. Make a mistake with a wild species and it may not be so easy if the flaw becomes dominant with free ranging animals. Unlike relatively contained domestics. Then who would be on the receiving end of the bad PR?

As far as numbers management they could shoot what and how many the GC biologists told them to kill. They had no season limits, so it seems like pretty much the same as goes on in Texas at certain places.

All said, it wouldn't take much for me to hunt Texas. I like the people, find the country interesting and the Deer hunting is obviously great.

Here, I would say it is the number of people. The GC proved given a 2 week season we can make war on Does until it is hard to find one. They finally backed off. In addition it contributed to more land being posted.

Additionally, those who make the rules, may want and prefer it to be over in two weeks. Over and done, that problem is solved for this year.

And while "nature gives the best an appearance" huge horns are not natures typical appearance for the species. Perhaps there is a reason for that?

As far as raising animals, I've seen some fine looking and finding Bird Dogs that not only had adult genetic disorders, but were duds when it came to kicking out outstanding future pups.

Next what part does the Doe play with the throws? Should we be placing more emphasis on the Doe than placing so much consideration on what a particular set of horns look like?
And yes a good Doe to Buck ratio is said to be important.

Not saying I'm right, just raising questions. Perhaps some with expertise in wild animal genetics will add something. Interesting stuff.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Nature certainly had bucks with big antlers.



Bad breeders. Most just want a lot of puppies for sale, but good breeders cull hard. Show dogs will ruin the hunting breed.



Hard to follow the does without eartags or something. Bucks you can judge. miles

I was always under the assumption that the short seasons were a management tool to control population.
I have mixed feelings about genetic breeding for antlers. It's kinda like Wally-World. Some good, some bad, but it is what it is, so we must learn to live with it. I used to hog hunt on a ranch that had big antler breeding. The hog hunting was in off season and cheap. This guy sold some hunts, but his main business was selling breeding stock to other ranches to improve their heard. I guess that about half were sent to large low fenced and the other to high fenced ranches.
Because, for many years the state mis-managed the heard by not allowing does or spikes to be taken, almost any buck with a forked antler was shot. Land owners wanted deer to be seen, no matter if they were dinks or not. I was on a lease where 7 or 8 bucks were killed the first year. I believe one was a 6 another an 8, the others spikes. We killed, almost twice that number does. The averaged gutted only weight for the bucks was 67lbs and does in the low fifties. I think all the bucks were under 2.5yrs. The next year my buddy was distraught, because he thought he had killed a huge button buck. It weighed 75lbs and turned out to be a 5.5yr old 1' spike. I'm sure that with intensive management, that ranch, by now, 40yrs later, might be producing decent deer. Who's to say, or try to stop that landowner from trying to improve his heard with better genes.
OTOH, on the ranch where I used to hog hunt, I've seen breeder 2.5yo bucks in his pens that will score 200+ B&C. Hopefully some will escape and improve the pool for all. I do have mixed feelings, but live with the hand I'm dealt. Captdavid

Can find significant agreement in your points, with two thoughts for consideration.

One: while nature certainly throws large horns, it is not the norm. Should we be intervening to try and change that?

Two: if we are going to intervene, then it takes finding some way to track the female component in order to have the most correct answer.

Bucks in pens don't count when it comes to making decisions on wild herd management. It will take a wildlife biologist to make me feel different. They get sick and their value means they may receive veterinarian services to save them. It alters their ability to throw immune offspring.

Talking only about those that are sold for wild herd improvements, he sells about as many does as bucks, stands to reason. Those does are tagged, so not as to be shot in the wild. He says that if the deer, bucks or does, make it through the first year, their survivability rate is about the same. I have wondered about what long-term problems might arise myself. All the management people don't see any problems, but of course who pays them. Remember "95% of the doctors we asked said our cigarette improves your health!" captdavid

Do you think trophy bucks actually breed anymore? To old by the time they have the best antlers generally speaking.

And young bucks generally don't get the chance.

In my area it takes generally a 3.5 year old to have a chance at breeding. So I have 3 sets of antlers to study and 3 years to study the body etc... before they could in theory ad to the negative side of the formula.

And by the time they hit 6.5 you rarely have a deer thats capable of winning the fights enough to breed anymore.

This is from what I"ve seen by observing deer for years.

We managed to cull out a no brow tine gene probably 90% at one place. And those deer never showed the big bodies of the best deer eihter.... so the signs are there.

Am I wrong for my way? I think not.

Are you(generic you) wrong to shoot whatever you want? Nope, not as long as its legal. Same for me.

Yet its probably my personality. Whatever I do, I strive to do it the best I can, and for the best overall outcome. I don't get joy in just going and taking from a resource and not trying to help it. I don't get joy from shooting competitively and not giving back to the sport. I don't get joy in being a half azz fire fighter/EMT, I strive to do better every time. I don't' do my inspections job that way either, constantly trying to understand safety and how it relates to building and how to be correct for both sides of the issues, keep it safe, and keep it as low hassle for the owner/builders as I can.

I do half azz type here though generally... in a hurry and fail to take time to correct typing mistakes. I will admit to that half azz for sure.

And in the end, these discussions, and they are that to me, not arguments, get heated. Like I say, its the keyboard. You read emotion that I'm not intending and vice versa.

Hell we all enjoy the outdoors and luckily we all tend to gravitate to like types as we go along. That means the ones that want to manage, tend to hunt together, the ones that don't' do the same and that's really the best.

I feel in many ways we are VERY fortunate to have private land here. It allows you to somewhat control whats goign on. If it was all wide open public, many times the deer you allow to mature, get bopped by the next guy.

I'm thankful for our deer populations here. It would be tough for me to hunt for days without seeing a deer like some areas. It was like that here at home for years. I didn't waste the time. I get it from some areas if you have the need to kill one, you better shoot the first legal one you see.

I think at a big literal campfire most all of use would have a blast regardless our thoughts.

I realize I"m jumping in here.... to many fire/ems pages this morning....
But I agree on the female thing. Unfortunately in nature we have only a few things we can visibly see. And doing our best there, is better than nothing? No?

Heck I odn't like folks that go for the doe thats the biggest and carrying twins behind her because they get the most meat... shoot the scrawny ones or old ones. Or shoot the youngest ones before they become the mainstay of the herd.

Penned up breeding colonies of deer are just a whole other subject and not what we talk about when we talk about managing wild deer populations.

The only time I have issues with myself is when I do find a great big bodied buck, very healthy, large long big body frame and in fine shape, but with only a 4 point or 6 point rack. Obviously being a mature deer at that point. I've even let a couple of them walk... but then again I've shot a few too. lets face it. While I profess I"m not after antlers, 99% of folks out there are and if you can get rid of the 4 points, that could actually be 10 points, kinda one of those why not questions/situations.

And I've seen quite a few low fence situations end up having a majority of mature deer being 10 or better. its just management that does that. Not natures selection.

What would we have cattle wise if we just let nature run it all by herself?

If a guy is interested in managing the deer herd (strictly talking fair chase low fence), concentrating on mature bucks and does should be the goal, in which therein lies a problem. I don't think the majority of hunters can tell a fully mature (5.5+ whitetail, 6.5+ muley) when they are looking at one.

Thats funny, IMOH telling a fully mature whitetail is by far the easiest.

Telling if they are 2.5 to 4.5 sometimes can be a guessing game a bit.

The problem with mature, is that most folks rarely if ever see one. Once you've seen a few, there is little doubt.

Muley's I have NO clue about.

Bet you wouldn't have much trouble identifying this one as fully mature. I'd say fully mature "and then some".

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or this one...

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I'd say this one needs another year or two.....

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I've often wondered that my self. Heck there's areas here in Mn. where you get only 1 weekend. Get a bad snowstorm or a weekend of rain, and the harvest is totally screwed, and the harvest is the reason for the hunt in the first place.

JG, I think there is also a term post mature. I believe that fits.