Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting In defense of Texas hunting leases

A little history first. FWIW I was a history teacher for close to 30yrs. I have only hunted Texas, except one trip to New Mexico and one to Africa.
Texas was an independent nation before it became a state. There are many nuisances to this, but one of the main ones is that Texas retained all it's public land. There are national forests now, but those were purchased from local landowners.
I grew up on the edge of East Texas. I spent lots of time driving the roads and hunting small areas in the mid to late 60s, for rabbits, squirrels dove and quail. I never saw a deer until 67, when I saw one doe. There were deer in pockets, but not many. Driving the back roads to college in the piney woods I never saw a deer along the roadside. There were some deer in the national forests, but not many. Much of this was probably due to hunters that would shoot any deer any time of the day or year. I once knew a guy that always carried his gun on Wednesday and Sunday go-to-meeting night and drive the long way home hoping to get a shot.
Most hunters, from basically Dallas-Houston east, if they wanted to deer hunt, went west or south west. The ranchers in these areas, seeing a way to make money began to lease for deer hunting. My father and a bunch of his buddies, began leasing a place near Kerrville, in what's called the Hill Country, in the early 50s. It was a big deal, and still is to many, to go 'to the deer lease.' It use to kill me when Daddy would leave and not take me.
Beginning in the mid sixties problems began to show. It was illegal to shoot spikes, and does, and for a long time afterwards many landowners frowned on it. The rules on our lease said 12yrs was minimum age to go and 14yrs to hunt(accompanied.) It was not uncommon to see 20+ does and a handful of spikes per morning or night. The deer were small also. A mature buck (3.5yo) might not weigh 100lbs. I once shot a buck that had an 8pt, perfectly formed, rack that had an 8", that's right, 8" inside spread. At that time 'forward thinking' landowners began to high fence their ranches. A friend's father was on a lease. We used to see lots of deer, but few bucks.That was 50yrs ago and I've forgotten some of the details. I believe he had over 3000 acres and they wanted 75-100 or so, does and spikes killed. The leasees took local boys club and scouts on a one day hunt. A good day was had by all, except the deer. There was also a management plan where bucks and does were to be killed in equal numbers. The next year the leases were worried because they were not seeing many deer. The following year both size and quality improved. Unfortunately, due to college I was unable to hunt that ranch again.
There has been good and bad connected with high fencing. As with anything abuses do occur. On the whole I believe that they are for the good. On hunting high fenced areas, I have never had to make a shot at an un wounded running deer, nor a 'texas heart shot.' I don't practice these shots as I'm sure you do. I have never had a shot close in my direction nor had anyone walk by where I was hunting. I have never had one jump a fence and get away ( although I have on low fences,) nor have I ever had one run 200yds only to be claimed by someone else.
As far as hunting over a feeder from a deer stand. Is that so much different from hunting over a mast crop, or an agricultural field, from a popup blind or a tripod. Also I have never had my hunt made miserable or shortened by bad weather, except 100+% during summer axis or hog hunting.
This leads to my last point. Many animals are in hunting numbers today due to high fencing. This had lead to the establishment of a free ranging population of Audad, blackbuck and axis. These seem to be a good fit with our deer herds as these are grazers unlike whitetail which eat forbes. Although everyone that kills a hog claims that it is part Russian, it's not true. But, the ones that are are because of escapees.
We basically play the hand we are delt. I hunt the way my father hunted. I have also still hunted, been part of mini drives and hunted choke points on high fence, low fence and national forest.
So before you criticize it too much, come down, try our way, try your way and make your judgement. Let us keep this civil! captdavid

The story of the screw worm fly would fit right in with what you write.

There is a lot of things I like about Texas, and some really unique hunting opportunities I would love to experience.

High fence, private lease, blind over a corn feeder, "bunk house" type deer hunting is not one.

Just my opinion of course.

I too, grew up in Texas and hunting in Texas. I never hunted a high fenced area until I was in my late 40's.
One part of Captdavid's story is that a lot of the reason for the 'no doe shooting' in the 60's was due in large part to the drought of the 50's. There was a study done in the late 50's by Texas A&M in Llano county that showed some 90% of the deer there had died off due to no rain.
(as an aside, they closed the gates on Lake Belton in 1959 and stated that with the current rate of rainfall in the area, the lake would be filled in 5-6 years. That spring [1960] they had record rainfall and the lake was filled in less than 18 months)
Screw worm in South Texas kept the deer herds lower than carrying capacity for many years.
When Texas became a state, the US allowed Texas to keep it's lands in lieu of the US taking on the debt the Republic had piled up. The only requirement was the forfeiture of the lands in what is now parts of New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming.
Texas traded away some 'useless' land to have the current capitol built. This formed the XIT Ranch in the panhandle. They used convict labor for a lot of the workforce - the reason there is a street in Austin named 'Convict Hill Rd'.
The opinions of High Fence vs Low Fence will never be over. There is some good that comes of having high fencing to some and some mistaken beliefs involved by some that have never hunted it.
Methodology of hunting varies all over the country. Some would never hunt deer with dogs, to others, it is a way of life.
To each their own. The main thing to remember is the famous quote from one of our founding fathers - if we do not hang together, surely we will hang separately. If you don't want to hunt a certain way, don't.

Theres lots of pros and cons and opinions all over the board..What I get a kick out of are those that would refuse to hunt a 4,000 acre high fenced place but are perfectly content to confine themselves to a 114 acre "lease"....complete with feeders.

There are a lot of variables on a 100 acre small lease. I've seen some that are outstanding, because they are just over the low fence from a large ranch that is heavily managed. One is ok as long as the management strategy is adhered to. Problems arise when you are on a hundred acre lease by yourself, surrounded by five other hundred acre leases with ten hunters each. I once had a chance to buy 25 acres with a small house, surrounded by national forests. It would be a great base and one person might never have to hunt outside the fences.
Ingwe is right when he speaks of 4000 acre high fenced property. I've read that most deer never go more than a mile from where they were born. That being the case, what's the difference is in the writer's mind, not the deer's. The fact that one can hunt exotic deer's or antelope year around is a positive. I would've loved to hunt the prairies, or Rockies, but those weren't in the cards. I've only hunted outside Texas twice, once Africa, once New Mexico. I am not physically able to doo much walking or mountain climbing, but I do have a bucket list that includes the Texas Panhandle and 'up north'.
Captdavid

Texas with it's lease system and deer management practices has destroyed deer hunting in my lifetime. The lease system and "trophy management" has spread like a disease from Texas throughout the Country. When I was young, your average deer hunter here had no idea how to score a rack and didn't care. Folks hunted for fun/recreation and meat. Farmers looked at deer as a nuisance and consequently most didn't post their land and welcomed hunters. Any legal buck was considered a "good buck" and the odd big one a fortunate curiosity. Texas's bullshyt management practices, intense focus on "trophy bucks" and "score" has changed what was once a simple, inexpensive form of entertaiment for the rural masses into a rich mans competetive sport for the fortunate few. Thanks alot and congratulations you azzholes. Now GFY.

I don't do too many guided hunts, but when I do...it sure is nice to not see vehicles parked on every bend of the road...though most of those guys don't get 100 yards from the road.

I am happy that I can hunt public lands to my heart's content...but if I want to get away from the crowds, I'm glad I have the option to go on a hunt somewhere and have the place to myself...

And then the economy picked up and I could afford a gun to go compete with blackheart for cheap hunting and run up his cost.

Where I hunt it would be hard to walk 2mi in any direction and not hit a corn, soybean, alfalfa, buckwheat, etc field. No high fence, but one heck of a big feeder. And boy am I glad of it.

It wasn't Texas or leases that changed anything.

It was far better hunter awareness and a conjoined effort to improve deer herds, and not just shoot anything with hair on it.

If game conservation and management is a by product, then we are all the better for it.

If you still want to hunt cheaply, then put in for a tag out west on public land, or get in on management hunts for does or cull bucks.

Public land has become alot more crowded since all the private land got posted up and leased. Luckily there is alot of public land here and you can still get away from other hunters if you want to and work at it. I've hunted state land a ton here and have hunted many days without seeing a single soul or so much as a boot track in the snow. The woods are expansive, sparsely populated with deer and there are no feeders, food plots, blinds, shooting houses or stands. No four wheelers allowed either and the mountains are steep. It can be a chore getting a deer out.

Boy are you full of shyt as usual. Whitetail trophy buck madness got it's start in Texas. It was the greed of land owners, hunting product manufacturers and hunting video producers aided by the magzine publishers who all assisted in spreading the disease in the name of $$$$$$.

Pa has more than a little high fence hunting compliments of the State to keep Deer off heavily traveled roads. They can be hot spots, especially where one finds a break or it runs across a ditch.

In some ways I agree with Blackheart. I guess his attitude matches his name. But he doesn't have to be vulgar. I'm sure he wants the most pay for his work. Why shouldn't the property owner want the same.
Where I so much agree is that trophy fees have gone bonkers. But, they have allowed hog and doe prices to remain fairly reasonable. Something large and good to eat is available to hunt and eat year around. Remember, there isn't much public hunting land in most of Texas. So we need to be positive and live with we have. Captdavid

And the 'deer not going more than a mile' is a crock.

I know what it takes to make me happy and that's all that matters.

There is not much public land in Texas. My brother and I did try one public land hunt in east Texas, it was like my worst nightmare, so many tents everywhere, like a boy scout camp!

I invite critics to come to Texas, spend your money here, and hunt public land, enjoy!

It has become an overpopulated state, back in the late '50s and early '60s the population was 7 million, now it is over 21 million and that drives up prices big time.
I believe in land owner rights and see nothing to apologize for about paying for the privilege of hunting their land. but we have free choice and I don't hunt trophy fees by the score. I will still hunt friends of friends land to help them cull a doe population etc.

The thing that irks me from the high fence shenanigans is the trophy fee idea bleeding over to land owners of low fence hunting. It ruins the experience of hunting in my opinion.

But I can't afford to hunt Texas for trophy deer so I hunted the mountain states public lands for fun, camping and mule deer. Now that I'm too old to climb much I will trophy hunt Canada, Kansas or Missouri for whitetail, and be content passing on small bucks.
Happy Hunting Wherever You Hunt,

I can't scientifically prove it, but by experience I have seen the same deer, year after year coming to the same feeders. If they are spooked they might leave for a couple of days but most return. These BTW are low fenced. Im not doubting your experience, just saying it differs from mine. If you have a study I'd love to see it. Captdavid

Yeah, the study is seeing the same deer on a game camera 2 miles away a couple of days later. Further even, and I'm talking about bucks in the fall out cruising for chicks.

Not even discussing deer that 'migrate' between summer/winter locations.

Here's another hint, if the food source disappears, do you think they lie down and die, or go hunt for more food?

I should probably exclude rutting bucks. As far as starving, of course not. As far as seasonal migration, we don't have that here. Captdavid

Are you bragging or complaining?

You do realize that deer live other places, right? You stated that you 'read that most deer don't go more than 1 mile' you didn't say the deer in your woods don't go more than 1 mile.

So, once again, it's BS that MOST deer don't go more than 1 mile.

To each his own choice. Thank goodness I don't have to hunt in Texas. Shooting deer at a feeder seems too much like shooting livestock in a pasture; I have no interest in either.
Northern New England still has a lot of land, both private and public, that is open to the public at no charge. It may take a little work to find and the deer densities aren't real high but it isn't tough to escape the crowds. The hunting isn't a lot different than when I was a kid hunting with my dad 50+ years ago.

He's complaining. As usual.

If we could buy him for what he's worth, and sell him for what he THINKS he's worth, we'd all be rich, and go shoot deer on many leases...

The sad thing is you dumb SOB's think you're really hunting down there. God forbid you actually get off your azz and go in search of deer.

Neither. Just stating how it is.

I'm not interested in defending the private model of hunting in Texas. It's pretty much the same as Europe or South Africa where hunting is for the very rich and their friends/family. I much prefer large areas of public land that have reasonable access.

Could you please explain to me the difference between building a quick ground blind from brush on the edge of a cornfield in Iowa, or using a small brush pile for cover near an apple tree in Vermont and hunting a corn feeder from a pop up ground blind in Texas? Seems to me that the guy with the corn field in Iowa has the advantage.

There is a lot to your statement.

A lot of folks these days are management minded. Its the older folks that still think about shooting anything or at least any 8 so they can say to friends, I got another 8.... its the younger(hell we are pushing and over 50 now though) crowd that cares more about the herd and less about shooting an 8, we are after a mature wall hanger. Don't really care if that comes every 10 years or never again. We shoot to manage and eat. And now and then we get lucky.

I'm really amazed that folks get taken to task for that. You would manage livestock of any kind exactly the same way except for taking out the best breeder, but since we do that when the best no longer breed basically, its of no harm to the herd.

Re high fences, it seems that many think that high fences are all over the place... they really are not. I've hunted TX since the early 70s. Its this last lease that we are on now for the last 6 or 7 years that we hunt next to one. I've never been close to one in all the other years. You see them here and there but they are expensive to build and maintain, and really are not that common IMHO. Down south TX they might be a bit more common.

But having been on a 10K acre one a few times as a guest, I can tell you this... we hunted a 181 inch buck for weeks.... and never even caught sight. I know this because my buddies grandpa's cardiologist finally killed him... IE I knew the final score... We knew his area, had him on camera, and hunted hard on 3 day weekends for about 3 weeks.... go figure. Not that it bothered me but it sure wasn't fish in a barrel.

We all obviously hunt with what we have to work with. But to explain part of the difference. Texans will correct me if I'm wrong.

I can open and slam the front door and then throw out a dozen apples on the front yard. Usually, within 30minutes, they will be there eating them.

Cousin has a timed feeder in his backyard. It starts spinning and they will be there shortly most times.

Pavlov reflex when it comes to feeders.

To everyone who thinks they understand Texas hunting, guessing and opinions are a piss poor substitute for actual experience.

I am a firm believer in Fair Chase and I am also a believer in high fence hunting. I've never done it, but I had a trip that took me to the Texas Hill Country, and spent a good deal of time riding roads that were high-fenced on both sides for miles at a time.

I'm not against fencing, and I'm not against feeding. I don't feed on my property as a general rule, simply because I find I get better bang for the buck using other methods.

What I worry about is based on my hunting experience in Kentucky and Ohio. Public land hunting is too crowded and never to my taste. I never liked bumping into other hunters, and I never liked strangers' bullets zipping through the trees over my head. I opted for 200 acres of abandoned farm land and have been happy to hunt there with my family since 2001.

When I got there, I found the farm had been used as an unofficial WMA by the locals for a generation or more. Everyone knew my property. The old lady that lived there never denied anyone a hunt and regularly entertained them in her house. There was bitterness when I took over the place and posted it.

Now let us look at it from the other side: here's an out-of-state hunter swallowing up the local honey hole and hoarding it for himself. Damn! That's not right! What I see is that's the way the whole world is going. Everywhere the private land is being put off limits to hunters and the hunters that remain are being pushed onto ever more crowded public land.

Now here is a high-fenced alternative. Is it wild? Nothing is wild anymore. Everything has been touched by Man. I see hunting these days as sort of a Zen Garden type of thing. We aren't going to find true Wilderness anymore, so what we need to do is find an acceptable venue that reminds us of it. What I see is a future where folks can rent a spot in a simulated wilderness to capture that feeling. This may be where hunting is headed.

The Zen Garden

My point here is that we should not be too quick to knock hunting behind high fences. If you're in the middle of 3,000 acres or even 300, it feels wild. Fair Chase? Look I've got 200 acres of land. Statistics say there is probably one mature buck on the property at any given time. My chances of seeing him? About zilch. If I'm in the middle of the property, I couldn't tell if there was a high fence going around the perimeter or the Great Wall of China.

Supplemental feeding? I understand why that is part of the deal in Texas. You've got vast tracks of land covered with low brush and the odds are in the deer's favor. When a hunter talks about a deer running 30 or 40 yards after the shot and the carcass getting lost, I listen. It isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I understand.

So why do I think the Texas model may be the future of deer hunting? Look at where I am-- 60 some miles from Cincinnati. A Dad wants to take his son hunting. He has no access to private land and every WMA within a day's drive is filled beyond capacity. Now what? Let's say a place opens up an hour or two away from the metroplex that offers a weekend hunt, rustic living, full meals and processing for a father and son for a reasonable price. The only catch is that you're hunting inside a high fence. Who is going to mind? I've hunted with my back to a K-Mart. I've bowhunted in the 'Burbs. As long as you're not staring at the fence, the Zen Garden Effect is going to be just as real.

Just before the Deer & Deer Hunting forum folded tent, there was a fellow on there that was railing about how high fence hunting was complete anathema. He hated foodplots, minerals, etc. He took every opportunity to take umbrage with a couple of guys who ran Texas exotic ranches and pay-for-play hunting. He insisted that he would only hunt a wild, untouched place. As his story came out, I found he was hunting a large Wisconsin dairy farm exclusively. I don't want to call him a hypocrite, only because he was absolutely clueless as to what a dairy operation entailed. He showed up in the fall and did his bowhunting thing and had no idea what was going on around him.

Texas boys hunt high fence and over feeders, Ohio is a bunch of flatlanders, steer clear of the Pa crazies, wait you want crazy go South when they run them with Dogs. The Montana boys are unethical and use .22cal, etc, etc. Heck in some places they come in and take a nap all afternoon. Deer don't move during the day you know. Up in Michigan, you can bait them with potatoes. Two bushels max in one spot. How big is a spot and how do they tally up a bushel? Again, etc, etc.

Just who are the real Deer hunters?

Texan's get chit on for hunting methods dictated by what is allowed by 95% private land owners.

It would be great if we could at least target practice on the public land available, but that chit aint' happening either.

I would concur. There are reasons Texans do it the way they do it..you may not agree with them all, but when in Rome....

Sit back, watch and learn why.

If you don't want to hunt like Texans, don't go to Texas. No one is forcing you...

Pa is turning into Texas more every season and so are all but a few of the States. Ak being perhaps the only one, but then again there is a lot of cash changing hands up there to hunt.

Texas doesn't have to defend anything when it comes to Deer hunting. In fact, with their example along with other places like Kansas, it could be argued they are responsible for bringing more into the hunting ranks than those who think they are the pure Deer hunters.

Those two statements pretty much answer this entire thread, regardless of what else is said....

I love going to Texas and hunting Exotics. Have done free range and high fence.

I once shot a deer eating juniper berries.


Trust me! Don't do it!!!!



Those berries taste like schidt!

What? You don't like gin?

We used to day hunt around thousands of acres of peanut fields. The deer mainly ate the greens/tops. When we gutted them all you could smell was peanuts. Months later there was a slight smell of peanut when cooking. You couldn't taste it but the venison tasted about as good as any I've eaten. Captdavid

You don't really see a whole lot of high fence unless you are in south Texas. Owners high fence to improve the deer herd. They fly it twice a year, game biologists decide the correct amount of bucks and does to shoot. They take X number 5/12 year old trophies, X numer cull bucks, and X number does. Managed lands have a longer season also. They bring in better quality bucks also. The better and bigger the deer, the more the lease is worth.

Some ranches run guided operations, guide sits in stand, gives you green light to shoot. If you want to kill a whopper, this is the surest way.

I have always been on low fence places. Started out in Ozona, 200 a year in the 70's. 1000.00 bucks a gun for 25 years in Coleman, I'm paying 2000.00 now in Burnet. It is just what it is. Little free hunting here. I guess you can't be a cheap and hunt here. Nice guys on all the leases for the most part.

I love how folks think that everyone should hunt exactly like they do instead of adapting to local conditions.

Texas is a big state and hunting varies from region to region. I see a lot of guys from the Northeast talk about the only real hunting is tracking, while guys from the west will say its spot and stalk. I grew up hunting the big thicket in east texas. a lot of places there visibility was limited to 10 to 20 yards due to underbrush, osage orange thickets and briar patches. Spot and stalk or tracking wasn't much use there, We mostly used dogs to drive the deer out of the thickets until that was banned in the mid 1980s. Now I use feeders there, with more clearings and other habitat improvements but our success rate is still pretty low,

I've hunted over feeders in the hill country as well as spot and stalk there, which to be honest is probably a million times easier due to higher deer densities.

The hardest deer I've ever hunted was a late season doe hunt on a high fence place that wanted to clear a bunch of them out. Talk about spooky deer after being constantly pressured for 4 months

This thread has a very narrow view of what Texas has to offer. It's expensive but it's not just high fence exotics and shooting deer over corn feeders.

There are thriving herds free range Black Buck and Axis in the Hill Country. Mule Deer in the West. Aoudad Sheep in the Davis Mountains. Nilgai in the South. Small pockets of Oryx, Elk and Sika. You can go down to South Texas, pay $1250 and shoot a Nilgai cow and have 200 lbs of some of the best game meat around and the hunt won't be over a feeder.

I've no problem with folks shooting livestock if that's what they enjoy. I would hate however for that to become the norm.

I shot a young one once that had to be eating pine needles. For a 1.5 year old spike it was the worst meat I'd ever had. Threw it all out.

livestock because of feeding or because of fence? Some will never get it.

And fences don't keep all in or out. I used to watch a doe come jump in and out of an 8 foot fence every day I was turkey hunting... Got to be that I'd go watch that trail just to see it, then go chasing turkeys...

It might be BS, but I've heard that if a deer was alive, and jumping a low fence, and it's replaced by a high one, they sometimes jump it. While I've never seen them try, I have seen deer that have hung a foot in a high fence attempting to jump it and died. Captdavid

The biggest problem with hunting Texas IMO isn't high fences , it's merely the fact that there isn't any public land. How much land one has available to them to hunt is dictated by how much money they have and therefore how much land they have at their disposal. Some guys can't afford to hunt or own more than 100 acres, while some can afford to hunt 2500-5000 acres. The biggest negative affect on me hunting here is the confinement issue. I like opportunities, and the freedom to stretch my legs , see new territory and always wonder what's over that next ridge. You simply can't do that here. You have what you have (based on how much you've paid) and you'll get really good at identifying your surroundings from your box blind. The private land issue really is the hiccup IMO. This year I hunted on military land , 150,000 acres and even though I had to jump through a hundred hoops and a few hiccups I was able to really hunt. I hiked several miles on many different days scouting and looking for the right things that would make spotting a buck possible and then enacted my game plan. Shot my buck while sitting on the ground with my back against an oak tree and no feeders or BS just hunting. It was a nice change of pace from spending $4000 and putting 2000 miles on my truck in a hunting season and staring out a box blind window for 30 mornings and evenings! Too bad there aren't more opportunities in this state like what I experienced this season.

I can hunt the same way, on the ground, no feeder where we lease. In fact 1/3 of our deer if not half are taken that way.

Evidently there is public land in TX contrary to your statement, because you hunted it.

There is even more of that around. Biggest whitetail buck I've ever seen that I had a legal chance to shoot, was on public in East TX in national forest.....


There is not much public compared to private or to other states granted, but those who say tehre is none, have simply not doen their homework...

I don't see why any one has to defend any type of hunting if that is the way locals do it and it is legal.

My only comment is that these game farms have proven to be the big source of CWD etc.,in the wild after a few of the animals got loose,with the exception of lung worm in wild sheep coming from large flocks of domestic sheep.

Texas boys love to defend it. And then they spout out the whole public land defense that there really is public land available even though it's value is not worth even mentioning.

Where did the CWD that inflicts western states come from?

There were several game farms in northern states, WY,MT,ID with elk and deer that got lose. USDA put mandatory no shipping rule in place for those that were found infected.It's been awhile,so I don't have the particulars anymore.

i didn't see it in any posts, but there's the
issue of safety. most all of the ranches and
properties i've hunted wouldn't allow folks to
walk around and hunt because of the issue of
the need for safety. there are usually other
guests and livestock and outbuildings and
dwellings that figure into making a safe shot when
hunting. where i hunt now, it's not big enough
to walk around, and the only safe shot is to the
west and at a roughly 45 degree angle. shooting
any other direction and out of that field of fire
would be potentially unsafe. i've had brush cut
around me on public land from folks making
"sound shots" and "hail mary" shots despite wearing
an orange vest and hat. (required here on public land)
i'm sure that happens in other places too. i know
it does in arkansas and louisiana for sure.

CSU.

How is hunting over a feeder different from hunting over a mast crop?

Is that a serious question?

You must be hunting on either a very much overcrowded lease, or a very small one. One of my main arguments for the lease system is that once you pay your money, you never see another hunter besides those in your small group, or the landowner, or ranch foreman. Being able to lift your binocs to your face withouot seeing orange hats and vests everywhere is very comforting, to me anyway.

Can't be, according to campfire fact, that is signature Pa and definitely does not occur anywhere below the Mason Dixon line.

it's a very small place. one really doesn't need a half section
to kill a deer.
still, there are many people out hunting these days that don't
give any thought to where their bullet may end up after they
pull the trigger. they're too focused on trying to get something
to post online on their farcebook page.
on the tiny place i hunt on, i'll know for sure i won't be putting
any extra holes in someone's house or truck, or i won't have to
buy any prize cows or rare horses that got punctured by my lead.

Ever seen a deer almost 200 inches? I have. Taken in the public land we hunted on in nat forest. 198 inches. Gross non typical.

I don't understand you coming to TX and then constantly ragging on it.

Maybe its not suited for you?

You are correct about game farm issues. High fences here, don't indicate game farms.

And contrary to so many that even think they have a clue, its not to keep deer in, its to keep certain deer out....

The game farms are simply overpopulated feed lots often....Thankfully I dont' know of many of them, but its their right.

Why is it y'all feel a need to "defend Texas Hunting"?

It is what it is, if someone doesn't like it go away.

Hard to imagine too many other states where the tradition is ingrained at an earlier age and accepted by a larger part of the general population.

If that's true of some other states, more power to you!

Hunters are brothers under the skin.

Amen. Instead of bickering amoung ourselves and proclaiming "the only real way to hunt is the way I do it", we ought ot be supporting each other in order to sustain our beloved sport for as long as we can.

And to improve relations with their neighbors. Some that overbook their hunts like to call/rattle across the line or maybe stray a little. miles

Your response tells the whole story. I don't care if the deer is 200" or 120" I'm not trophy hunting for deer. I go deer hunting hoping to kill a decent buck, that's it. Texans are so concerned with what a buck scores and there in lies 90% of the problems. Just because I think deer lease hunting is lame doesn't mean you have to get your britches all bunched up. You keep hunting where ever and however it makes you happy, I really don't care one way or the other. I'm not some guy in Montana that hunts the west drawing a blind conclusion to what Texas hunting is like and ripping on it. I live here, have hunted all over Texas, paid the lease fees, small leases, big leases and I simply don't care for deer lease hunting.

The OP, a Texan, felt the need to start a thread with the title "in defense of.." If it needed no defense, why start it at all and I never saw any great outcry on here about Texas. Being 69 years old and never having a hunt altered by weather, sitting in heated blinds, and feeders..... well to each their own I guess. If that is for you, good for you, if not, good for you.

I have some mixed feeling about the state of deer hunting. Mostly is the best it's ever been in most of the US at least white tail deer. In my life time I've seen my state go from deer were mythical to one of the best white tail states in the country. That's good!!!! I too remember the days when a fellow would go deer hunting in the family station wagon toting a trusty 94 Winchester and have himself a nice cheap hunt and if he came in and said "I got an 8pt" the first thing out of some jerks mouth wasn't what did he score quickly followed by he'd have been a good one in another year or two. Like the fellow had stolen something from the speaker. Everybody of course wants to kill a big one but the trophy thing has gotten out of hand imho. I know several people that have multiple big deer hanging off their wall and one can't help but be a bit envious but inevitability you find all of them have made liberal use of corn feeders and or guided hunting where $$ buys you about any buck you desire. You also quickly realize that many have ,( to be blunt )neglected their family's to some degree spending every minute in the woods instead of at the ball field or you find their kids have never been on a vacation or traveled outside their county or state., and their wife has to attend a rocky man elk fund raiser to get a night out to dinner. Sure that's a value judgement on my part but that's ok ymmv but that's no different than judging a guy for shooting a 110 class buck . So yes iI like to get out in the woods and chase deer and when finally I got a big one I was really excited but I can't quite shake the memory of when I was a bout 8 and my dad and I accompanied a co worker of his on a deer scouting trip. We found a salt pile on a stump and the fellow we were with had a fit that a low life scoundrel would reduce himself to salting a deer. To this day I cringe a bit at the sight of corn feeders.

Lets all be sure to villify others that hunt. That ought to productive...

It seems like we could just accept that hunts run differently in different areas of the country. Some guys hunt over bait. Some hunt with dogs. Some detest tree stands. Doesn't mean anyone's right or wrong, it just means we choose to do things differently. I, for one, have never hunted deer over dogs, but growing up the son of a hound man, running game was the norm. I'd like to scratch that itch some time. Doesn't mean I'd want to do it frequently, but I'd most definitely give it a go.

I guess my bottom line would be, if you don't like the way they do it in Texas, don't hunt there, and don't whine about something you haven't experienced. To each their own.

Texas is a great place to go if you're shopping for meat, there is a lot of it available.

I think we both misunderstand each other a bit.

I don't care about score either. I was told that score. I saw the deer after it was shot. I've never had a single deer scored that I"ve shot. I use the inches to give an example of what you say is not available or possible. I didn't shoot that deer. I likely would not either. I care more about deer management, than shooting a big deer. I've most likely shot the last mature large deer I'll ever shoot a few years ago.

I still hunt public and really enjoy it. There is more out there than folks think. The years we didn't have a lease, we found all kinds of opportunities.

I've never not been able to kill a deer on public land either. Sometimes I chose not to harvest the deer that we saw.

We enjoy just getting out and away from the roads like you do.

But to say there is nothign out there worth a flip public is way off base.

Thats my point.

As to whether you lease or not, or can afford to or not, thats obviously your choice.

And while you won't believe this, I"m going to say it, because my friends know its the truth... We go to a lease to be with family and friends. Not for the deer. Sure we shoot them. ALmost all culls and does.
I can kill much larger deer at home. On my place and friends places. But during most all of deer season we drive to the least to have fun!

If we went camping every weekend during season at the lake or such, it would end up costing us more than our deer lease does

YMMV, and I'd love to share a campfire and beer with you one day! But yes, I"m going to defend what we do here. Thats what you do. Defend what you have and what you do. Instead of apologize for it.

We could jump back to a palce we love much, Alaska, and talk about all the slobs there, road hunters, poachers, game wasters and so on too.... But the hunting is "free". I have complained quite a bit about the ways a lot of folks hunt in Alaska too, so I"m a bit hypocritical here. Yet I'm not changing what we do. To get away from the slobs, we'd have to fly in etc...

Question, I'm betting from reading you've accessed FT Hood... have you tried Camp Bullis in San Antonio also? Its been some years, but they had some good game too, plus FREE ranging axis...( as well as axis eat I could care less if they were penned or free ranging, they are great food to us) IF Bullis is still open its another option for you. And make sure if you have not gotten the public hunting hand out from TPW to browse it too. Public plus draw areas too. And then check out NF lands.

Shooting a promising young buck is counter productive for the future of the herd. If you just want to kill one, there are almost always trash bucks around... so you 've shot the 8 just to say you shot an 8 in my view. I don't care personally, but I'll not do it. Anymore. And I've neither an issue with folsk that have never shot an 8 before or a 10 etc... you should start at the bottom and move up. Its a natural progression of hunting.

the ONLY way our local deer improved both in quality and big time in quantity, was to make it illegal to shoot that yearling 8 point by antler restrictions. The first year the bitching was beyond nuts... but 10 plus years into this, IIRC, I'd be hard pressed to find someone here to complain that they legally can't shoot that 2-3 year old 8 point...

But at some point as stewards of the land and all thats there, we should have some responsibility, to the management of it for the best, for future generations.

I get as much joy now, if not more, from seeing all the deer at home, vs from the 90s on back, being lucky to see a single deer all year long. Now its rare not to see a deer or more every day...

And I can be very happy for the 110 inch buck for someone, and at the same time make the very true comment that he had some good genetics. OR Iv'e been taken to task for commenting the truth, congrats on a nice deer AND he was one that NEEDED to get out of the gene pool...>OMG you'd think I'd screwed someones sister....

YMMV

And the sister will get screwed, whether you are the one doing it, or not. miles

There is a whole lot dumb on display in this thread. There is about an equal amount of common sense. The dumb ones seem to rattle on, the others are pretty brief. You can spend 30 minutes telling me why Ford is better than Chevy or vice versa, or you can drive what you prefer and keep your mouth shut. Or you can spend 30 minutes bitching that someone has a garage full of trucks and that's not fair.

Saying a Deer NEEDED to get out of the gene pool is the equivalent of saying they are on the HIT List. Something I find mildly repulsive in that you are now degrading the hunt to nothing but horns.

Have we reached the point where we can determine what is best for a species based entirely on one physical characteristic? Some people are naturals when it comes to physical characteristics, but fail when it comes to smarts. Some are prime examples, but are flawed with a type 1 diabetic gene.

It would be wise not to manage for one particular body part at the expense of the rest.

Addition: The one that NEEDED out of the gene pool, just may be the ONE that has the genetics to defeat CWD.

Agreed. Same for rifles, optics, etc. as well.
Life is short, do what makes your socks go up and down.

There's a lot of envy going on here. Do it the way you please and move along. Be happy for those that enjoy it differently than you do.

I prefer hunting (usually on foot) to harvesting (usually from a blind or a vehicle) but I enjoy both in one way or another. I've seen deer jump high fences many times. I've seen huge whitetails behind low fences stare at me from a mere 40yds away - just as I've seen huge mule deer do the same in WY wilderness.

Do as you please and be happy for others that do the same as long as it's lawful and respectful.

Now, go argue with an anti.

Nature devised a way to improve the gene pool, but we humans mess it up. Antlers are an advertisement to the does that I can keep my body at a good level and still have the extra to grow antlers, so you need to breed with me. They are also used to gain dominance over other bucks and maintain breeding rights. When we choose to eliminate trophy bucks, we interfere with that, so we should also keep the inferior bucks from breeding. A buck with inferior antlers is a meat buck to me. Of course I don't have control over enough land that it matters, but I feel better. miles

There was an individual I know here that has 5000 acres and decided to fence it along with getting private preserve classification. Good Pa Mountain country.

It wasn't to be a commercial operation. Just for himself and friends. He also allowed the GC to do studies on the property. Went and somehow obtained some Deer from up in Canada that had the hog genetics. Since he was paying for the studies, I guess the GC obtained them. Managed the property for food with timber cutting rotation and planting.

After a more than a few years he and the GC decided the big hogs genetics needed to be eliminated as best as possible. They were tearing up the smaller and younger Bucks something awful and in fact some of the smaller ones killed or tore themselves up bad trying to escape thru the fence.

Haven't crossed paths with him in some time, but would like to know what is now going on at the place.

Have you ever raised any animals? At all?

The answer is in there. Nature gives the best an appearance. And its teh best tool we ahve to work with.

As noted I've SEEN how this helps herds.

Those that have not seen it may never see it I suppose.

Comparing animals to humans gets no where in my books. I've certainly seen family genes that never should have been passed along. But we can't do that to humans...

Yes, its a hit list for sure. Just like we cull out cattle that are not promising. I've not problem with it being a hit list. Its no different than targeting older does that are no longer producing when you thin the herd out.

I fail to see how this is simply about antlers. Its for the best of the herd, and along the way you end up with better antlers at times.

Just my take.

Sounds like a numbers management issue to me

To date I still don't understand hunting seasons. Why can rifle season only be open for 2 weeks in some states?

Your right to believe what you want. I also have seen in Pa the positive benefit on horn quality antler restrictions have brought about. My point was we don't know the long term results when a species is managed primarily for one physical characteristic.

Cows are a domestic managed for meat, milk or bucking. Screw up and you get to start over. Make a mistake with a wild species and it may not be so easy if the flaw becomes dominant with free ranging animals. Unlike relatively contained domestics. Then who would be on the receiving end of the bad PR?

As far as numbers management they could shoot what and how many the GC biologists told them to kill. They had no season limits, so it seems like pretty much the same as goes on in Texas at certain places.

All said, it wouldn't take much for me to hunt Texas. I like the people, find the country interesting and the Deer hunting is obviously great.

Here, I would say it is the number of people. The GC proved given a 2 week season we can make war on Does until it is hard to find one. They finally backed off. In addition it contributed to more land being posted.

Additionally, those who make the rules, may want and prefer it to be over in two weeks. Over and done, that problem is solved for this year.

And while "nature gives the best an appearance" huge horns are not natures typical appearance for the species. Perhaps there is a reason for that?

As far as raising animals, I've seen some fine looking and finding Bird Dogs that not only had adult genetic disorders, but were duds when it came to kicking out outstanding future pups.

Next what part does the Doe play with the throws? Should we be placing more emphasis on the Doe than placing so much consideration on what a particular set of horns look like?
And yes a good Doe to Buck ratio is said to be important.

Not saying I'm right, just raising questions. Perhaps some with expertise in wild animal genetics will add something. Interesting stuff.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Nature certainly had bucks with big antlers.



Bad breeders. Most just want a lot of puppies for sale, but good breeders cull hard. Show dogs will ruin the hunting breed.



Hard to follow the does without eartags or something. Bucks you can judge. miles

I was always under the assumption that the short seasons were a management tool to control population.
I have mixed feelings about genetic breeding for antlers. It's kinda like Wally-World. Some good, some bad, but it is what it is, so we must learn to live with it. I used to hog hunt on a ranch that had big antler breeding. The hog hunting was in off season and cheap. This guy sold some hunts, but his main business was selling breeding stock to other ranches to improve their heard. I guess that about half were sent to large low fenced and the other to high fenced ranches.
Because, for many years the state mis-managed the heard by not allowing does or spikes to be taken, almost any buck with a forked antler was shot. Land owners wanted deer to be seen, no matter if they were dinks or not. I was on a lease where 7 or 8 bucks were killed the first year. I believe one was a 6 another an 8, the others spikes. We killed, almost twice that number does. The averaged gutted only weight for the bucks was 67lbs and does in the low fifties. I think all the bucks were under 2.5yrs. The next year my buddy was distraught, because he thought he had killed a huge button buck. It weighed 75lbs and turned out to be a 5.5yr old 1' spike. I'm sure that with intensive management, that ranch, by now, 40yrs later, might be producing decent deer. Who's to say, or try to stop that landowner from trying to improve his heard with better genes.
OTOH, on the ranch where I used to hog hunt, I've seen breeder 2.5yo bucks in his pens that will score 200+ B&C. Hopefully some will escape and improve the pool for all. I do have mixed feelings, but live with the hand I'm dealt. Captdavid

Can find significant agreement in your points, with two thoughts for consideration.

One: while nature certainly throws large horns, it is not the norm. Should we be intervening to try and change that?

Two: if we are going to intervene, then it takes finding some way to track the female component in order to have the most correct answer.

Bucks in pens don't count when it comes to making decisions on wild herd management. It will take a wildlife biologist to make me feel different. They get sick and their value means they may receive veterinarian services to save them. It alters their ability to throw immune offspring.

Talking only about those that are sold for wild herd improvements, he sells about as many does as bucks, stands to reason. Those does are tagged, so not as to be shot in the wild. He says that if the deer, bucks or does, make it through the first year, their survivability rate is about the same. I have wondered about what long-term problems might arise myself. All the management people don't see any problems, but of course who pays them. Remember "95% of the doctors we asked said our cigarette improves your health!" captdavid

Do you think trophy bucks actually breed anymore? To old by the time they have the best antlers generally speaking.

And young bucks generally don't get the chance.

In my area it takes generally a 3.5 year old to have a chance at breeding. So I have 3 sets of antlers to study and 3 years to study the body etc... before they could in theory ad to the negative side of the formula.

And by the time they hit 6.5 you rarely have a deer thats capable of winning the fights enough to breed anymore.

This is from what I"ve seen by observing deer for years.

We managed to cull out a no brow tine gene probably 90% at one place. And those deer never showed the big bodies of the best deer eihter.... so the signs are there.

Am I wrong for my way? I think not.

Are you(generic you) wrong to shoot whatever you want? Nope, not as long as its legal. Same for me.

Yet its probably my personality. Whatever I do, I strive to do it the best I can, and for the best overall outcome. I don't get joy in just going and taking from a resource and not trying to help it. I don't get joy from shooting competitively and not giving back to the sport. I don't get joy in being a half azz fire fighter/EMT, I strive to do better every time. I don't' do my inspections job that way either, constantly trying to understand safety and how it relates to building and how to be correct for both sides of the issues, keep it safe, and keep it as low hassle for the owner/builders as I can.

I do half azz type here though generally... in a hurry and fail to take time to correct typing mistakes. I will admit to that half azz for sure.

And in the end, these discussions, and they are that to me, not arguments, get heated. Like I say, its the keyboard. You read emotion that I'm not intending and vice versa.

Hell we all enjoy the outdoors and luckily we all tend to gravitate to like types as we go along. That means the ones that want to manage, tend to hunt together, the ones that don't' do the same and that's really the best.

I feel in many ways we are VERY fortunate to have private land here. It allows you to somewhat control whats goign on. If it was all wide open public, many times the deer you allow to mature, get bopped by the next guy.

I'm thankful for our deer populations here. It would be tough for me to hunt for days without seeing a deer like some areas. It was like that here at home for years. I didn't waste the time. I get it from some areas if you have the need to kill one, you better shoot the first legal one you see.

I think at a big literal campfire most all of use would have a blast regardless our thoughts.

I realize I"m jumping in here.... to many fire/ems pages this morning....
But I agree on the female thing. Unfortunately in nature we have only a few things we can visibly see. And doing our best there, is better than nothing? No?

Heck I odn't like folks that go for the doe thats the biggest and carrying twins behind her because they get the most meat... shoot the scrawny ones or old ones. Or shoot the youngest ones before they become the mainstay of the herd.

Penned up breeding colonies of deer are just a whole other subject and not what we talk about when we talk about managing wild deer populations.

The only time I have issues with myself is when I do find a great big bodied buck, very healthy, large long big body frame and in fine shape, but with only a 4 point or 6 point rack. Obviously being a mature deer at that point. I've even let a couple of them walk... but then again I've shot a few too. lets face it. While I profess I"m not after antlers, 99% of folks out there are and if you can get rid of the 4 points, that could actually be 10 points, kinda one of those why not questions/situations.

And I've seen quite a few low fence situations end up having a majority of mature deer being 10 or better. its just management that does that. Not natures selection.

What would we have cattle wise if we just let nature run it all by herself?

If a guy is interested in managing the deer herd (strictly talking fair chase low fence), concentrating on mature bucks and does should be the goal, in which therein lies a problem. I don't think the majority of hunters can tell a fully mature (5.5+ whitetail, 6.5+ muley) when they are looking at one.