Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Pre '64 375h&h

I am very likely to have an opportunity to purchase a pre '64 model 70 in .375 h&h in the very near future for a good price. My question for those with more experience than myself is whether there is anything specific I should look out for before I buy this rifle. Im pretty excited about it and I don't want that to cloud my judgement.

this will be my first "big bore" centerfire and will be used to hunt elk and black bear when I decide I want to carry something other than an '06 or 7mm-08, and hopefully will have an opportunity at AK grizzly/browns and maybe Africa someday. If nothing else its a classic rifle and cartridge with a great history and will be coming from a friend. I have not seen the rifle yet but am told its very clean with low round count and unmodified. Any info specific to the pre '64 and .375 to look out for would be appreciated. I do not currently have a SN or pics, sorry.

thanks for your help/advice,

wildfire

(posted previously in big bore sub forum)

A lot of the stocks cracked. They did not use cross bolts in them at that time.

donsm70

where specifically did these stocks tend to crack? and would restocking (custom) with cross bolts be an option or is that a limitation of the pre '64 action? please forgive the ignorance but thats why I came here to ask

Hi, thanks for coming here with your questions. It sounds like you trust your friends judgment when it comes to this rifle. It sounds like a nice clean rifle. That is extremely cool and if it is all original and in very nice shape (let's say high 90%), the rifle should be worth upwards of $3,000.00+. donsm70 is absolutely correct in that they would crack. Some cracked behind the tang and most cracked through the magazine mortise to the trigger slot in the stock. This was not a design flaw of the pre 64 model 70, but an engineering flaw that they eventually took care of with the later ones along with the 458wm as well. If your stock is not cracked, you better buy a lottery ticket right now. I'd also suggest putting the barreled action into a well known synthetic like a McMillan or Brown precision. When you do this, you won't need cross bolts. I'd hang on to the original stock and keep it in good condition and hunt with the McMillan, so you don't devalue the rifle by putting wear and tear on the original stock. This is what I did with my 375:


You could also buy a "shooter" stock off of ebay or someone here and install cross bolts in that stock. Here's a stock I bought on ebay for my 375 to keep it looking more original. I paid $120.00 for it, It already had the crossbolts, so I just glass bed it and I was in business:

These 375's are known for being excellent shooters. Dang near every pre 64 375 that I know of has been a phenomenal shooter. Mine was a sub moa rifle.
I look forward to hearing more about that rifle. Keep us in the loop and let us know when it was manufactured and when you get some pictures, post them and we can tell you a little more about that rifle. Thanks...

bsa,

thanks for your interest and for expanding on the typical issues with this model. thats exactly the type of info I was looking for. however, I don't know that I could bring myself to put such a classic rifle in a synthetic stock. if I were to restock it, it would likely be in a mid to high grade wood with the addition of cross bolts as it seems that they are a worthwhile addition and possible with this action. (similar to your lower picture)
I take extremely good care of my firearms and appreciate nice wood and metal finishes, however they will be hunted hard and honest unpreventable wear will be seen as an asset and a mark of character. I don't have the budget to be a collector, Im a user. But I strive to appreciate the history and significance of every firearm and cartridge I am fortunate enough to interact with or own. I look forward to (hopefully) adding this one to the stable.
Great to hear about the inherent accuracy of that vintage of 375's. What would your assessment of the recoil from that rifle be? For reference I am familiar with 12 ga waterfowl, turkey and slug loads, and heavy for caliber .30-06 loads out of a Kimber 84L (around 7.5 lbs scoped), I assume this rifle will be a step up in recoil and will come with a learning curve, but I have also been told that the .375 h&h is fairly reasonable in that respect. thanks for your time

The .375 is unique from all other model 70s in two ways - the barrel and the stock. The receiver, magazine box and follower are common with the .300 H&H, the bolt is common with all other magnums, and the balance of the parts are shared in common with the standard caliber model 70.

What this means is all of the real value in a .375 is in the condition of the barrel and the stock. If the barrel is modified, shot out, or abused, it really guts the value of a .375. Similarly, if the stock is cracked, modified or damaged, this also takes a real bite out of a .375's value. As BSA points out, cracks in .375 stocks are very common, as are "armory pin" and cross-bolt type repairs.

When evaluating a .375 for purchase, I really scrutinize the stock and the barrel. A good .375 stock will cost you at least $500 (unless you are gunner500 and you call me with a special request ), and an original .375 barrel in excellent/original condition will set you back as much as $750.

Hope this helps!

Justin

I love my Pre64 M70 in 375H&H. It also is a very accurate rifle. The recoil is more than the 30/06 but manageable. I have discovered reduced loads for this and several other big bores that make them much more pleasant to shoot and they are very capable deer rounds.

pre64win, great info thanks!

Understand the desire for a collector to pick out the fine points to maximize that collector value, but does that really apply here? Would this be more for using, and wearing out, vs preservation for display and collector value?

If for hard use and wearing out, would gas handling modifications be on the table, for safety sake? Retro gas block, modified shroud ala Roy Dunlap, custom safety w/ gas deflector, etc. Hard to think of a worse rifle to be using than an unmodified pre-64 should you run into primer or case issues.

I'd be looking for solid good condition of the barreled action, and to hell with any collector value. Sell off any collectible stuff you will not use, like the stock. Stick it in a durable hunting stock. And I'd modify the rifle to improve, the best you can, the original "gas and crap straight in the face" handling design. Then I'd hunt the snot out of it.

If you do all that why not just start with something else?
Makes no sense

I hold a similar view as the OP, I am more a user of collectible guns than a collector. I always sell off the clean ones and keep the ones with issues.

That said I do like originality; my Fwt 30-06 is well used and I did refinish the stock. It still retains the aluminum buttplate and is a great hunting rifle.

My 375 H&H is another story. I bought a very reasonably priced reblued 375 H&H in a decent stock with incorrect pad. It may have been shortened a tad as well. I had no problem glas bedding and adding dual steel crossbolts to the stock and a large (extra thick) Pachmayer Decelerator pad to get it to the proper length of pull. I then found another pre 64 Win 70 375 H&H that was in an altered stock that had been rechambered to 375 Wby Mag. I swapped actions as my original barrel although reblued was done very nicely and you would not know it was reblued. The gun looks great and talked loud in Africa.

You have to ask yourself sometimes, am I running a museum or am I a shooter/user. It is your gun to do with as you please. If you choose to add the dual crossbolts I highly encourage it and recommend Ahlman's in MN to do the work if you intend to hunt with the gun. Now if it was minty that might give me cause to alter it, but if it has seen some use and you intend to use it. Do it! You can always tell people that you just made their unaltered gun more valuable.

ETA: 375 is probably similar or less than 12 gauge. I load 70 grains of IMR 4064 with 260 grain Nosler Partitions with Fed 215 Primers in Win cases as a longer range plains game load; it would be great for deer/black bear. The velocity is 2711 fps.

My 300 grain load is 66.5 grains of IMR 4064, which yields 2450 fps. I use Nosler Partitons, Win Silvertips, and Hornady RN, DGX, and DGS.

Seat them all to the cannelure nad give a moderate crimp.

I completely understand wanting to hunt with the original wood stock and metal as built. I also enjoy hunting my wood rifles, but have to admit it hurts a bit when I am in a downpour or blizzard and my wood/blue rifles are soaked- which is why my primary elk rifle now has a McMillan stock on it.

I've owned 3 of the Pre64 375's over the years and every one of them was a tack driver. Cloverleafs was the rule for my handloads, which were the first load I found in the book in each case.
However, working up loads was painful and was the limit of my tolerance for recoil. These rifles just aren't really fun to shoot off a bench, IMHO. Shooting offhand wasn't really a problem, though, and a bipod and sitting position was almost as easy.

Enjoy the rifle and go kill big critters with it. My favorite load was a case full of H4831 and Hornady 270 grain SP's. Seat them about .010 off the lands and go adjust your scope.

Bob

I totally agree... A stainless classic comes to mind...

Good post Bob..

I have the stock McMillan stock that BSA pictured here.
It is the only way to fly if your going to restock a rifle. I had the good fortune to buy a 375 with good metal, but a crap stock for 1200, then I restocked it into BSA's McMillan and dang if it doesn't shoot real nice.

I realize this is a collector forum, and I understand how it may be a bad idea to use a collectable museum piece, but I disagree with the notion that a pre-64 is off limits to any semi or custom modifications to build a hard use hunting rifle.

Why would anyone build a rifle on anything, like a Mauser, or a pre-64, vs something like a Classic Stainless. Changing barrel lengths, better sights, Lapour safeties, bridge modifications, barrier finishes, durable stocks, etc...are all valid for an owner's rough and tumble pre-64 375 for wearing out while hunting around the world.

I took the op for hunting this rifle hard, to include AK and the continent of Africa. Nothing blue sky day ginger rifle about this, that rifle would get the snot run out of it. Nothing in that equation preserves collector value, unless he was POTUS.

I believe you can hunt a rifle in harsh conditions with out ruining it. I have hunted wood stocked rifles in Alaska, Africa and several western states. They might come back with a memory or two but that's what they were made for.

That is where we stand apart, "ruining it".

Ed Lapour modifications, to improve safety, better handling, better fixed sight picture, better scope mounting, etc. To me, is not "ruining it". For someone else, adding cross-bolts, bedding, improving finish, better sights, etc., may not be "ruining it".

But, if it is a collector's piece, then, any use is "ruining it". I did not take this from the op as some type of collector's piece. In comparison to what he intends to do with this rifle, and the rounds one would shoot through this rifle doing so, what little value that rifle has, would be mere drops in the bucket. He should feel free to do to that rifle what he please.

Good info BSA, and many Thanks too you Justin.

That's awesome man. Glad it's working out for you. I really hated to let that one go, but damn glad it went back on a good 375.... I really liked the way my rifle balanced with that stock. Now you have a rifle you can hunt the hell out of and hunt it hard. No need to do the things the other guy is suggesting. Just plain ludicrous. A pre 64 is about as good as it gets when it comes to a hunting rifle....