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#11669088 - 12/18/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
Bugger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/17/14
Posts: 2467
Loc: South Dakota
The Siamese Mauser was a cheap import. It was possible to make a rifle capable of killing anything on the continent even with cast bullets and do it very cheaply.
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#11669327 - 12/18/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
Jericho Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 6579
I believe the recoil on an Enfield in 45-70 would be horrible.

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#11670135 - 12/18/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
deerstalker Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5813
Loc: Bonners Ferry ID.
Bugger, the SM's were inexpensive but not cheap. then with their magazine configuration they were perfect for the rimmed 45/70

Jericho, i fired a friends Enfield and it rattled my teeth. thats one reason i went for the SM. of course my Mauser weighs right at 9.5 pounds.
_________________________
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it
ROBERT E LEE. letter to Lord Acton

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#11670137 - 12/18/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: M3taco]
deerstalker Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5813
Loc: Bonners Ferry ID.
M3Taco, i will be having dreams about your m70 tonight.
HOLY GRAIL.
_________________________
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it
ROBERT E LEE. letter to Lord Acton

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#11670379 - 12/19/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: deerstalker]
M3taco Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 430
Stalker:

It is one of the sweetest rifles I own. The smith told me he had about $2300 total into the work with most of it paid by the original client in advance. All he wanted for it was to get what he still had outstanding.....$750. shocked

PM me an email address and I'll send photos.

Forebore - agree the only difference between the 458 American and the 450 Marlin is the band width and position on the case. The point I was trying to make is that a manufacture (Hornady) commercially produced the 450 Marlin and I don't think anyone ever commercially produced the 458 American. Maybe IF someone had, the 458 American would have become commercially viable. But then too, the manufacturer would have very likely run into the liability issues of a few idiots trying to interchange American and Win Mag. Just like you "CAN" shoot Win Mag in a Lott chambered rifle, most don't recommend a steady diet of it as it can mess up the chamber over time. So, you end up back for the reasons for the 450 Marlin - greater performace while hopefully reducing liability.

My other points for the 450 Marlin conversions are, not having to use an angled magazine to accomdate the 45-70 rim, not having to open the bolt face to accommodate the 45/70 rim and creating a possible weak spot (have one that proves this) and lastly, reducing the possibility of a jam by not having to worry about making sure the rounds are loaded down in the mag well again due to the 45-70 rim.

Of the conversions I have my favorites, in order are: 1 - Win 70 in 450 Marlin, 2 - Ruger 77 in 450 Marlin, then the SM's in 45-70. Others may different opinions and that is fine. I've got literally several thousand rounds combined between these five weapons and this is my hands on experience.

As mentioned - the SM imports for conversion were "inexpensive" and not "cheap" meaning "low quality". Historically, at the turn of the century when these were made in Japan under license by Mauser for the nation of Siam (now Thailand), Japan was know for turning out the highest quality steals available anywhere. That inherent strength and quality and an angled box magazine combined with there very inexpensive re-import surplus price is that made them so attractive for 45/70 conversions. Unfortunately now with time, when SM are for sale they seem to start around $300 and up. Goo bit of money when all you need is the action.

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#11670532 - 12/19/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
tmitch Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/21/13
Posts: 2500
I built up a .45-70 on a Siamese action in the early '80s when I bought a barreled action for cheap. IIRC it came to me direct through the mail. I sent it to ER Shaw and they converted the action for .45-70, barreled it, bent the bolt handle, drilled & tapped and bead blasted blue. All for the princely sum of $164. I put it in a classic style Bishop stock and it turned out pretty sweet. Never tried pushing the limits, mostly 350 Hornadys at around 2000 which are pretty comfortable to shoot.
My LGS has an original Siamese Mauser in very nice condition but at $450 it's too expensive to use as a donor.

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#11670625 - 12/19/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
Bugger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/17/14
Posts: 2467
Loc: South Dakota
Mausers, Springfields, SMLE's, 1917 & 1914 Enfields were often available for very little money, in a category I'd call cheap. They were all bargains. I think the Springfields were less than $10. When we went to where dad bought all his reloading material we'd see wooden barrels filled with different WW2 and WW1 rifles.

I don't recall seeing Japanese rifles in this store, I do recall a lot of bitterness towards the Japanese. A lot of uncles and cousins and neighbors went to that Great War. There were a lot of people in the area where I grew up that were immigrants from Germany who avoided Nazis. So Germans were not so bad.

I remember Springfield barrels going for $.98 - new - in Cosmoline which you could order through magazines.

Dad bought three or four Springfields and a few Mausers. That's where my first rifle came from a 7.92x57 which was converted to 6mm using a Sharon barrel and a Herters stock.

I also remember seeing the Siamese Mausers for sale, but only in magazines. Dad had no need or desire for large rimmed cartridges though. My brother's and I were quite happy with the 06's and the reworked Mausers.


Edited by Bugger (12/19/16)
_________________________
Μὴ πλανᾶσθε, ἀδελφοί μου ἀγαπητοί.
It's not that old dogs can't learn new tricks. They just don't see the need to!

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#11670738 - 12/19/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
fourbore Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 476
Loc: NewEngland USA
Quote:
Forebore - agree the only difference between the 458 American and the 450 Marlin is the band width and position on the case. The point I was trying to make is that a manufacture (Hornady) commercially produced the 450 Marlin and I don't think anyone ever commercially produced the 458 American. Maybe IF someone had, the 458 American would have become commercially viable. But then too, the manufacturer would have very likely run into the liability issues of a few idiots trying to interchange American and Win Mag. Just like you "CAN" shoot Win Mag in a Lott chambered rifle, most don't recommend a steady diet of it as it can mess up the chamber over time. So, you end up back for the reasons for the 450 Marlin - greater performance while hopefully reducing liability.


I believe the fear was firing a 458 American in something like a 357H&H or any smaller bore belted magnum. That would be interesting! Too bad, I liked the concept. And as far as I can tell the 350 rem mag had the same issue and no problem. Maybe an older time.

I could not resist a little jab against the 450.

I do see your point, had a factory loaded 450 been available, who knows.

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#11671158 - 12/19/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
Bugger Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/17/14
Posts: 2467
Loc: South Dakota
The American could be inserted in a magnum whatever chamber and fired. That was the fear as I recall.
_________________________
Μὴ πλανᾶσθε, ἀδελφοί μου ἀγαπητοί.
It's not that old dogs can't learn new tricks. They just don't see the need to!

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#11673876 - 12/20/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: tmitch]
deerstalker Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5813
Loc: Bonners Ferry ID.
Originally Posted By tmitch
I built up a .45-70 on a Siamese action in the early '80s when I bought a barreled action for cheap. IIRC it came to me direct through the mail. I sent it to ER Shaw and they converted the action for .45-70, barreled it, bent the bolt handle, drilled & tapped and bead blasted blue. All for the princely sum of $164. I put it in a classic style Bishop stock and it turned out pretty sweet. Never tried pushing the limits, mostly 350 Hornadys at around 2000 which are pretty comfortable to shoot.
My LGS has an original Siamese Mauser in very nice condition but at $450 it's too expensive to use as a donor.


interesting stock! i assume thou art a lefty?
_________________________
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it
ROBERT E LEE. letter to Lord Acton

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#11673959 - 12/20/16 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: deerstalker]
tmitch Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/21/13
Posts: 2500
Well I'm right handed but I grew up shooting left handed, my father said I was left eye dominate when he taught me. Sometime in my life I became right eye dominate but continue shooting long guns and archery left handed. Considered switching but I have a decent collection of lefty rifles now.
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#11709403 - 01/04/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
clintsfolly Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 402
Loc: outside Lansing mI
Few yrs back I made up a Savage110 LH in 450marlin and used it a few yrs to kill deer with cast bullets. With MI restricted rifle trial I cut some case to 1.795 and loaded with a 500gr cast bullet set to full length. So I now have a 450marlinx1.8 a 500gr at 1800fps. It is one of the last guns I will ever give/sell!
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#11709519 - 01/04/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: clintsfolly]
kenster99 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 3074
Loc: Hangtown Ca

I picked up this Siamese mauser in 45-70 this past year off Gunbroker. I love the feel of this rifle, havnt shot it at paper yet.The synthetic rifle with it is a 20" barreled 458 Win mag. More pics to follow.

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#11738811 - 01/15/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
ringworm Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 12826
Loc: Southern States
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#11740435 - 01/15/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
45_100 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 163
Loc: SE Arizona
Hope I a not hijacking this thread but would like to add to the conversation. Years ago my dad gave me a Krag-Jorgensen single shot bolt action and said it would work well for a 45-70. Only had to open the bolt face a few thousandths to make it work.
Well Crossfire put on a barrel and chambered it for me. We talked about making it a 45-100 but he convinced me to stay with the 45-70 since that is what I would shoot most.
Still need to make a stock for it but it test fired just fine.

If any of you know anything about those actions, I would appreciate knowing more.

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#11740456 - 01/15/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: 45_100]
Jericho Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 6579
I have heard of Siamese Mausers being converted to 30-40 Krag also. Could probably load it a little hotter in the SM action...

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#11741748 - 01/15/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
deerstalker Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 5813
Loc: Bonners Ferry ID.
thats got me going. the bolt face woukd have more strength with the 30-40 and it could be hotroded. i have never been drawn to the 30-40 except for the krag it was in.
just what i need another project, anybody have a siamese for sale?
_________________________
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it
ROBERT E LEE. letter to Lord Acton

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#11786208 - 01/31/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: fourbore]
RoninPhx Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 11509
Loc: arizona
Originally Posted By fourbore
Quote:
http://www.gibbsrifle.com/sport_speciality_.html

I would like to see what these run, price wise. They direct you to old western scrounger, then nowhere...


There is a phone number at the bottom of the page at the link posted above Gibbs Rifle.

And, Western Scrounger also has a phone.

http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?...6f59b4155d5b744




i had one of those stored in my safe for about ten years. returned it to owner, could have bought it for about 800bucks.
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#11824634 - 02/14/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
outhuntin Offline
New Member

Registered: 02/13/17
Posts: 3
Loc: michigan
try this again. i joined the site for this very reason. I have a mauser in 45/70. been trying to figure its value and what it precisley is . im not mauser savy nor is it that anywhere ive taken it anybody knows mauser markings. I am willing to sell it but havnt because i new it was unusual caliber for a mauser action. if i can get a couple ppl telling me a fair price on it i would sell it. i can text you photos, dont know how to post them. thanx
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#11826711 - 02/15/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
fourbore Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 476
Loc: NewEngland USA
Originally Posted By outhuntin
try this again. i joined the site for this very reason. I have a mauser in 45/70. been trying to figure its value and what it precisley is . im not mauser savy nor is it that anywhere ive taken it anybody knows mauser markings. I am willing to sell it but havnt because i new it was unusual caliber for a mauser action. if i can get a couple ppl telling me a fair price on it i would sell it. i can text you photos, dont know how to post them. thanx


I can understand not posting a photo. What I dont understand is your lack of details. Nothing???

The gun has markings. What are ALL THE MARKINGS. Then someone will tell you what it is and you can google and no doubt find some auctions on the internet. Its not that hard.

You might also describe the stock, barrel length, mechanical condition if you can determine, fit, finish or wear over all, iron sights, has it been drilled for a scope?, type of butt plate, grade of wood if restocked. ZERO, that is all you can provide.

Pricing guns is something of an art in itself. At best you get will get a range like 500 to 1000 depending too many factors to list.

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#11831262 - 02/16/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: gunner500]
458 Lott Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 18117
Loc: Conundrum, Alaska
Originally Posted By gunner500
Originally Posted By deerstalker
that one was done by Navy/Gibbs. they did the Siamese Mausers along with the Enfields.
i think i got this one for 450.00
after waiting for 20 years to find it and the way it shoots, she ain't for sale.


For some very unknown STUPID reason I walked away from a Siamese Mauser in a very nice grey syn stock at a gun show about 10 years ago, it already had the two position [Buehler?] safety, a 14" LOP with Dec pad, two bags of new brass, out the door for 5 bills. cry

A set of sights and barrel band sling swivel from NECG and I would have a mini Safari rifle that I could have hunted any NA game animal to 300 yards, damn, I hate being that dumb at times.


Simple solution, get a 458 win mag and download it to 45-70 ballistics. 458's are reasonably common and reasonably affordable.
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#11832048 - 02/16/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Bugger]
Dekker Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 133
I went the 458 American route. I had a Remington 660 re-barreled and set up with peep sights. It makes for a great short range thumper. My eyes have been giving me fits trying to focus on the irons and I am thinking of going with a Scout scope and leaving the peep sights or removing the rear peep and adding a regular 2.5x Leupold scope.

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#11850312 - 02/23/17 Re: 45-70 bolt guns [Re: Jericho]
Craigster Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 2624
Loc: lost coast ca
Originally Posted By Jericho
I have heard of Siamese Mausers being converted to 30-40 Krag also. Could probably load it a little hotter in the SM action...


I have this one in 30 US (30-40). Pic is kinda crap, but you get the idea...


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