|
|
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 173
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 173 |
I concur with what Sheister has said. There are very sophisticated counterfeit model 70s out there which require a forensic approach to determine they are not original - you cannot detect they are a fake by a close visual, even magnified examination. The .358 mentioned in the OP is a feeble attempt at fakery which would not fool any serious collector. However, the existence of very good fakes in some extremely rare chamberings has made most collectors very wary of paying huge sums of money for what appears to be a mint rifle in a rare chambering. Many collectors are protecting themselves by only buying rifles with provable provenance, which is a very troubling side-effect of people counterfeiting rifles. Collectors who have perfectly legit and rare guns are at risk of seeing potential buyers shy away from those rifles if the owner cannot prove they are authentic. I know of some collectors who have started cataloging every serial number they can find and noting the chambering and other details about the rifle. This seems like a daunting task when there are 700,000 pre-64 model 70s out there, but this effort has already resulted in identifying rare rifles which have been faked. When a mint .270 sells on RIA for $1,700 in 2008, then the same serial number reappears in 2016 on J.D. Julia as a 250-3000 Savage with an estimated sale price of $14,000, they know not to buy it and they also sound the alarm to other collectors about the clearly faked rifle. Often, the person selling it has no idea it is a fake. They bought it several years before with no clue there was a problem. I've seen careful collectors detect faked rifles by tracking serial numbers on two different occasions. Occasionally there has been talk from WACA members about creating an online database for logging and cross-referencing model 70 serial numbers. In the absence of Winchester factory records on the model 70, such a database would be a huge help in putting an end to the counterfeit rifle business. I'll get off my soap box now. Cheers, Justin PS: I hope some day my son buys me a .358 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 5
New Member
|
|
New Member
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 5 |
I was talking to a friend in Alaska about how whenever a pre 64 7mm comes up for auction, if it's a standard grade it's virtually mint OR it's a carbine. His reasoning for this was that most of them are fake. He may be correct. Sometimes a little normal use wear can be your friend. Especially when the rifle has just enough wear in the right places to indicate that it was carried and potentially hunted with some. It's what I like to call a "good honest gun". There's a 358 on guns international now that is sale pending, the seller wanted $4650 for the gun. The metal on the gun is virtually flawless but there's a good bit of finish loss on the stock, hmmmm. There was another that sold a week after I got Dad's by the same seller (as a consignment), a gun that was listed as a result of my purchase, albeit not nearly as nice as mine but way more expensive. This particular one had an aftermarket jeweled bolt and a mauser style trigger guard with the button. It also had significant amount of compression marks and scratches throughout the wood. Even so, someone paid $4500 for it. Makes me feel good about the deal I got on mine  There's a 358 on gunbroker now which is likely original. It has had the stock cut to accommodate a receiver site, the listing speaks of provenance so I guess you could get the guy to sign an affidavit lol. Pictures aren't so great but appears to be a nice rifle. Also, per his last list Randy Shuman had a 358. I concur with what Sheister has said. There are very sophisticated counterfeit model 70s out there which require a forensic approach to determine they are not original - you cannot detect they are a fake by a close visual, even magnified examination. The .358 mentioned in the OP is a feeble attempt at fakery which would not fool any serious collector. However, the existence of very good fakes in some extremely rare chamberings has made most collectors very wary of paying huge sums of money for what appears to be a mint rifle in a rare chambering. Many collectors are protecting themselves by only buying rifles with provable provenance, which is a very troubling side-effect of people counterfeiting rifles. Collectors who have perfectly legit and rare guns are at risk of seeing potential buyers shy away from those rifles if the owner cannot prove they are authentic. I know of some collectors who have started cataloging every serial number they can find and noting the chambering and other details about the rifle. This seems like a daunting task when there are 700,000 pre-64 model 70s out there, but this effort has already resulted in identifying rare rifles which have been faked. When a mint .270 sells on RIA for $1,700 in 2008, then the same serial number reappears in 2016 on J.D. Julia as a 250-3000 Savage with an estimated sale price of $14,000, they know not to buy it and they also sound the alarm to other collectors about the clearly faked rifle. Often, the person selling it has no idea it is a fake. They bought it several years before with no clue there was a problem. I've seen careful collectors detect faked rifles by tracking serial numbers on two different occasions. Occasionally there has been talk from WACA members about creating an online database for logging and cross-referencing model 70 serial numbers. In the absence of Winchester factory records on the model 70, such a database would be a huge help in putting an end to the counterfeit rifle business. I'll get off my soap box now. Cheers, Justin PS: I hope some day my son buys me a .358
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,961
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,961 |
I bought my 358 from Randy decades ago and if there bringing $4500+/- then maybe it's time to move it on. I haven't shot it in at least 10 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151,008
Campfire Savant
|
|
Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151,008 |
Does anyone have Randy’s number? He used to send me a list, but wanted customers to start paying to get the list. I want to buy a nice 270.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 23,013
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 23,013 |
Hanco: That "list" is now to pricey for my tastes!
I get "copies" of various recent lists nowadays.
Long live the "Riflemans Rifle"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 40
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 40 |
717-776-5710. make sure to ask all your questions about the gun you want & be prepared to pay for it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151,008
Campfire Savant
|
|
Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151,008 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,777
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,777 |
Why would you expect the seller to absorb the cost of producing a list? First there is his time to compose the list, printing, ink,paper & postage. Things like that add up especially when many requesting a list are just tire kickers.
|
|
|
|
|
595 members (1234, 12344mag, 163bc, 10gaugemag, 17CalFan, 10Glocks, 65 invisible),
2,155
guests, and
1,120
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,190,729
Posts18,457,475
Members73,909
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
