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Campfire Ranger
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So far I have tried these super-streamlined bullets from various makers in 3 different cartridges, and so far only in one case have they shot what I would call "very well". In the rifles in question a more conventional bullet shot much better, and took less development to establish a good load. These are all in rifles with appropriate barrel twists for the bullets in question.
The best has been a .300 RUM, in a Montana Rifles X2 model. It has shot literally bug holes with 180gr Accubonds, with 4 different loads, at various speeds and OAL's. By contrast, the 190 ABLR has managed .81" for its best 3 shot group, and most of them were more like 1 - 1½".
It's a similar story with my 7mm-08, which has a 1 in 9" Pac-nor barrel. It's superb with 120gr Ballistic Tips, but groups with 162 ELD's are 1½" to 2".
One guy commented a while back that the ogive on these bullets makes them more sensitive to seating depths than more conventional profiles, like an Accubond. I'm wondering if anyone has found a common technique that works with these style bullets? For example, the Barnes and other monolithic bullets are advised to seat at least .050" off the rifling, so I'm wondering if someone else has found a technique that works with VLD's and similar bullets.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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I always start at the lands for seating depth, Berger has a recommended seating depth procedure on there website. It seems to work for most.
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Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
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I always start with factory length, it it shoots sub MOA, I'm happy.
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Campfire Tracker
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I use Bergers method start on the lands and back off sometimes way off to see what happens. The sleeker the bullet the more temperamental they seem to be. Also might try them at 2-300 yards as I have been surprised by shooting almost the same size group farther out as I got at 100 yards. A one inch group at 200 is a half minute group. But others times I just give up before finding a sweet spot. Or a switch to the length tolerant classic hunter or some other less pointy bullet has made life easier with out too big of a loss in BC.
Not sure what the Montana has but these bullets seem to like a 1 degree target throat better than the 2-3 degree SAAMI throat.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Sh1t, let's get real.
Acronyms don't kill big furry critters, bullets do.
The (horrible and totally dishonoured) cup-and-core Hornady Interlockeds and Nosler Ballistics kill like crazy in the standard cartridges that most of us use.
Hey, .25-'06 (my personal favorite), .270 LBTGQ community, .280 Ackley, .30-'06, .338-'06 ... they kill just fine and dandy.
No extra capital letters and dip-shyt acronyms needed to make them kill any better. Just drop the crosshair on fur and they're dead-dead-dead.
May God Bless You,
Steve
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397
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Sh1t, let's get real.
Acronyms don't kill big furry critters, bullets do.
No extra capital letters and dip-shyt acronyms needed to make them kill any better. Just drop the crosshair on fur and they're dead-dead-dead.
May God Bless You,
Steve
Good to see you here, Steve. Good to see a ray of of realism. I've tried new stuff, and had good luck with Berger VLDs and the A-max, but when I stick a Hornady inter-lock in a vital spot, I get out my knife and the work begins.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
Robert E. Howard
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[video:youtube]BbU4Cb4A4-o[/video]
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sh1t, let's get real.
Acronyms don't kill big furry critters, bullets do.
The (horrible and totally dishonoured) cup-and-core Hornady Interlockeds and Nosler Ballistics kill like crazy in the standard cartridges that most of us use.
Hey, .25-'06 (my personal favorite), .270 LBTGQ community, .280 Ackley, .30-'06, .338-'06 ... they kill just fine and dandy.
No extra capital letters and dip-shyt acronyms needed to make them kill any better. Just drop the crosshair on fur and they're dead-dead-dead.
May God Bless You,
Steve
 Right you are. Besides all the antiques, and single shots I collect, I finally took up a couple of long range rifles, and thought about shooting at longer ranges. As far as I can see it, wind drift is the big reason for the super-duper streamlined slugs, trajectory not so much. And yeah, this past fall I looked at a huge old aoudad, that was across a canyon, with a strong gusting, swirling crosswind. Neither the guide nor I were willing to take the shot. The ram looked at us, and was not alarmed  But so far, an Accubond or a Ballistic Tip shoots much tighter groups than any of the alphabet soup bullets 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Yea alphabet soup bullets can't hang with accubonds and Btips for accuracy.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sh1t, let's get real.
Acronyms don't kill big furry critters, bullets do.
The (horrible and totally dishonoured) cup-and-core Hornady Interlockeds and Nosler Ballistics kill like crazy in the standard cartridges that most of us use.
Hey, .25-'06 (my personal favorite), .270 LBTGQ community, .280 Ackley, .30-'06, .338-'06 ... they kill just fine and dandy.
No extra capital letters and dip-shyt acronyms needed to make them kill any better. Just drop the crosshair on fur and they're dead-dead-dead.
May God Bless You,
Steve
I love it....
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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So far one of my favorite long-range alphabet bullets is the Hornady 160-grain FTX for the .30-30. It shoots pretty well out of my Model 64 Winchester with a Lyman 56 aperture sight, and when the Lyman's clicked up will hit an 8-inch gong consistently at 300 yards--about where the FTX's velocity drops to 1800 fps.
The Lyman even has a "zero stop," for turning it back down to 100 yards, so my 76-year-old lever rifle is right in there with the current hot trends. Nothing like acronyms for modernizing old stuff, like a WM64.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Ranger
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Next month I'll be taking some FTX bullets hunting in a .35 Remington Marlin 336. And to add more alphabet, backed by TAC powder. I wasn't sure how consistent it would burn at moderate pressure suitable for the Marlin, but it shot well with very consistent velocity.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Friends, Sorry for the rant last evening Let me explain. I haven't been on the 24HCF for many moons (callouts cease participation greatly), but the Alphabet Soup Boolit thread caught my eye. And it reminded me of the many, many "new and improved" shooting products that I've seen and used for the last sixty-some years of shooting and killing furry critters. Let me see, when I was a kid, your rifle would instantly rust to death if you didn't use WD-40 (turned out to be a decent product). Then, there was the white gunk you treated your barrel with that made your bullets go faster (not a good product). And later, you had to cryo your barrel or it wouldn't shoot worth spit (very questionable). And moly (don't get me started on that one). ABSOLUTELY, there were fabulous new products; Hornady Interlocked bullets, Nosler Partitons and Ballistics, to name a few. And synthetic stocks, and stainless steel custom barrels. Truly, we live in a Golden Age of superb shooting stuff. BUT, there is also the tendency for manufacturers to promote their new stuff as better than the old stuff. Sometimes that is true and sometimes it is not. Funny story, several years ago, I was hunting antelope with Pat Sinclair (ScenarShooter) on the Hougen Ranch out of Melstone, Montana. We found a really great buck feeding smack in the middle of a HUGE open wash. Pat ranged him at 300 yards. The problem was that we had about a 30mph wind dead from our left. I was shooting my favourite .280 Ackley with 140Ballistics at 3,150fps. I declined to take the shot. I'm a decent shot, but the risk of wounding a magnificent antelope was just to high. As it turned out, he eventually spooked and ran over a hill. Prolly twenty minutes later I killed a really bonzo buck antelope maybe a half mile from the original shot opportunity. At 200 yards and no wind ... no way to know, but I've always thought he was the SAME BUCK ... prolly was. If I'd been shooting one of the new Alphabet "Slick" bullets and had less hunting experience, I might have been suckered into taking the original shot. I dunno. Anyway, there has always been good stuff and there's always been new stuff and sometimes the new stuff turns out to be better ... and sometimes it just slinks back into obscurity. Time always tells. Just passing through; see you guys later. Blessings, Steve PS. Here's the buck Pat and I killed together. By the way, Pat is the real deal, an incredible hunter and a fine, fine man. A friend. ![[Linked Image]](http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a180/dogzapper/antelopebuck.jpg)
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397
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Campfire Ranger
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"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm just confused....
A potential pitfall of higher BC bullets might be the temptation to take shots you shouldn't?
Great goat DZ!
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sorry for the rant last evening no worries, Steve, I got a laugh out of it. It strikes me as ironic when a "long range bullet" shoots groups 2-3x larger than the old style bullet, which seems to defeat the purpose of the sleeker bullet. From what others have posted, you can make them shoot well, but they will take more development time than old style bullets. Development time is kinda expensive with a .300 RUM, in powder, bullets, barrel life, and shoulder  thanks again for posting, Steve
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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I've tried A-Maggot's, Sierra HPBT's, ABLR's with crappy results.
The bullet that simply gives results right outta the gate is the Lapua Scenar.
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Campfire Tracker
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I've tried A-Maggot's, Sierra HPBT's, ABLR's with crappy results.
The bullet that simply gives results right outta the gate is the Lapua Scenar.
Do you mean accuracy or on game results?
Gerry.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Steve, loved your post... You nailed it. Agree with Lapua and what you said about Pat. He is the real deal. I've visited with Hi_Vel ( http://parabola-llc.com/product-info/) who invented the Reticle Tru tool. He's located in Pat's general area, has great things to say about him. And, Scenars are so easy to work with, I see why Pat likes them so much. DF
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In general, I haven't had much problem getting Berger VLD's (or other Bergers) to shoot well either. In fact the most accurate bullet in my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle is a Berger, and I've also tried three different brands of highly regarded small-maker bullets.
Have just started fooling with ELD's but don't expect them to be much different than A-Maxes, which I've usually found easy to work with. Have has mixed results with ABLR's, but more positive than negative.
But have had excellent accuracy from a bunch of other bullets too, of course including Hornady Interlocks, Sierras and Ballistic Tips. Used to have more problems with AccuBonds but not many these days--but also have generally good luck with Partitions. I don't expect them to shoot like target bullets, but in many rifles they've been among the most accurate. In a 6.5-06 where I tried at least a dozen different bullets, the 140 Berger VLD was the most accurate bullet, but the second was the 140 Nosler Partition.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Steve,
always enjoy the dose of grounded common sense. But John has me buying boxes of lettered trinkets to try just because you never know.......
They go right next to the boxes of cast lead with gas checks that Mike V got me to buy.
Enjoy it all friend.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yeah, Bob. The Fire is NOT a good place to save money... I never had so many varieties of powder, bullets, etc., pre-Fire, not including the guns I've built as a result. DF
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Steve, nice to see you posting again, and a reality check is always refreshing. Hope things are well with you and your better half!
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Do you mean accuracy or on game results? I'm staying on topic which was how they shoot accuracy-wise. I plan on shooting stuff with them this year.
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It has been my experience that a shorter than average shank on BTs can make them harder to get to shoot well from many rifles.
The shorter the shank means less bearing surface contacting the barrel. Less grip. More chance for bullets to yaw. Stability isn't as good as with FB bullets, generally.
Throw a huge throat into the mix and you've got a bullet that's at a disadvantage from the get-go. You can get at BT to shoot certainly, but the effort (and expense) isn't always called for.
There is a higher likelihood that you will get straight sided FB bullets to shoot tighter groups from most rifles. If you are not shooting over three or four hundred yards, which most hunters aren't, it's easier and cheaper to get something like a Hornady Interlock to group.
KISS.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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That's interesting Steve R. I've found in numerous rifles that if it won't shoot a BT, finding one it will shoot accurately can be very tough.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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I've found that rifles that shoot 1/4 MOA at 600 also shoot pretty well at 100, regardless of the bullet type.
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I've tried Berger VLD hunting bullets and got great accuracy from the 155's in my 308. In can't get the 168's to shoot well at all. The Hornady ELD-X bullets in 178 and 200 gr have shot very well in my 30-06 and 300 WSM and aren't too expensive. I've had mixed results with Nosler Accubonds.
The trajectory of the high BC bullets isn't that much different. The biggest plus that I see, and I've yet to see anyone discuss, is better retained velocity and energy as range increases.
Comparing the 180 gr Hornady Interlock with the 178 ELD-X with both leaving the muzzle at 2800 fps there is about 100 fps and about 130 ft lbs advantage to the ELD-X at 300 yards. Only about 1/2 difference in trajectory, I didn't calculate wind. Not a huge difference, but if the ELD's prove to be as effective on game why not take advantage of it.
I haven't seen enough field reports on the ELD's to know how they perform on game.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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That's interesting Steve R. I've found in numerous rifles that if it won't shoot a BT, finding one it will shoot accurately can be very tough. What I do with a new rifle or barrel is ask myself what the intended target and range of encounter is likely to be. Load development is driven solely on that, not because I might have a pile of BTs of the correct diameter. Any load used at 300 yd and less is FB. For example, the 308 Win cartridge is not particularly difficult to get to shoot well. This cartridge likes Re 15, Varget, 4895 and a few others. These powders have a proven track record with a wide variety of bullets. Except for target loads, I always start with a Hornady, Rem or Win FB because I have never used a rifle that shot BTs better than a FB. This is especially true for smaller calibres. Certainly, if you are trying to build a LD load, you're going to mess around with a BT, but the majority of hunters aren't looking to drop game at long distances. Most are looking at 300 yd or less. BTs aren't needed and are generally more finicky when developing a load. It's certainly difficult to convince hunters who have never shot game beyond 150 yd. that they do not need a BT bullet. The reaction is always the same. They aren't playing the percentages, they're trying to cover a long shot that won't happen. Edited to add: 224 is anything beyond 200 yd.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Mr. Ridgewell.... you've literally said some of the dumbest things I've ever heard a gunwritter say.... and y'all say a lot of stupid stuff. But that "Ballistic Tips are tough to get to shoot accurately" statement takes the cake.... you're like the Craig Boddington of Canada.... eh?
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Well, thanks for the hunting and load development seminar, but let's just say my opinion of BTS is much different than yours.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Mr. Ridgewell.... you've literally said some of the dumbest things I've ever heard a gunwritter say.... and y'all say a lot of stupid stuff. But that "Ballistic Tips are tough to get to shoot accurately" statement takes the cake.... you're like the Craig Boddington of Canada.... eh?
Actually, I said that I've never had a rifle shoot BTs better than FBs. Didn't mention Ballistic Tips. BTs are boat tails, not Nosler Ballistic Tips.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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What the fugg does Facebook have to do with this thread?
Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again!
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the 24HCF.
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Campfire Ranger
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FB=Flat Base
BT=Boat Tail
You'd think that would be rather obvious given the context of Redgwell's post?
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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You'd also think someone could type out the words "boat tail" instead of throwing around acronyms that could have multiple meanings, at least for the first post so everyone can understand what they mean. After that it's OK to get lazy & abbreviate. I swear half the people on these forums are worse than the military with the damned acronyms.
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Campfire Ranger
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You'd also think someone could type out the words "ballistic tip" instead of throwing around acronyms that could have multiple meanings, at least for the first post so everyone can understand what they mean. After that it's OK to get lazy & abbreviate. I swear half the people on these forums are worse than the military with the damned acronyms. Crow, That's true. Good point.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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I would point out the BT stood for boat tail, long before Nosler Ballistic Tips were created. But that's getting off the topic of the various boat tail bullets - AMAX, VLD, ELD-X, ABLR, etc. - how they do or do not shoot, tips for loading them, etc.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Someone, (I won't name names but his initials are Deflave) needs to come out with a bonded GFY boat tail.
"I girdle punched her with a resounding thump. GFY @ 3,150."
Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again!
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the 24HCF.
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Sh1t, let's get real.
Acronyms don't kill big furry critters, bullets do.
The (horrible and totally dishonoured) cup-and-core Hornady Interlockeds and Nosler Ballistics kill like crazy in the standard cartridges that most of us use.
Hey, .25-'06 (my personal favorite), .270 LBTGQ community, .280 Ackley, .30-'06, .338-'06 ... they kill just fine and dandy.
No extra capital letters and dip-shyt acronyms needed to make them kill any better. Just drop the crosshair on fur and they're dead-dead-dead.
May God Bless You,
Steve
Some like the extra reach the VLD offers.  Yea alphabet soup bullets can't hang with accubonds and Btips for accuracy. Yup. NBTs and NABs dominate LR competitions. There is no way a VLD could hang with those bullets, much less a good ol interlok or Corelokt.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Campfire Ranger
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I'd say I prefer to use boat tail bullets wherever I can, except of course where they just aren't applicable. If for no other reason than they're easier to get started in the case mouth. Thanks to all, the thread answered my questions on how to get them to shoot.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Just checked my loading notes.
It turns out that the ONLY problem I've had with getting Nosler AccuBond Long Range bullets to shoot accurately was with one of the two .270's I've tried them in. (The other .270 started shooting them into little groups right away.) That's one out of half a dozen rifles, using ABLR's from 6.5mm to .30 caliber.
Might try to get them to shoot in the uncooperative .270, and might not. It shoots really well with a bunch of other bullets, including Hornady Interlocks, Nosler Partitions and (guess what?) the new Berger 170-grain Elite Hunter. And I've killed enough big game with various Bergers to know they work fine too.
Have other projects that deserve more attention, so probably won't try six different powders and seating depths to try to get the ABLR's to shoot well in the single rifle I've encountered so far that apparently doesn't like them much.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,739 |
Second the mule deers remarks on the FTX , I cannot believe how well they shoot! And harvest game! Use them in the 30 30, 300 savage, 32 win spec,35 Remington and the 45 70
Last edited by Angus1895; 02/23/17.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,020
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,020 |
Friends, Sorry for the rant last evening Let me explain. I haven't been on the 24HCF for many moons (callouts cease participation greatly), but the Alphabet Soup Boolit thread caught my eye. And it reminded me of the many, many "new and improved" shooting products that I've seen and used for the last sixty-some years of shooting and killing furry critters. Let me see, when I was a kid, your rifle would instantly rust to death if you didn't use WD-40 (turned out to be a decent product). Then, there was the white gunk you treated your barrel with that made your bullets go faster (not a good product). And later, you had to cryo your barrel or it wouldn't shoot worth spit (very questionable). And moly (don't get me started on that one). ABSOLUTELY, there were fabulous new products; Hornady Interlocked bullets, Nosler Partitons and Ballistics, to name a few. And synthetic stocks, and stainless steel custom barrels. Truly, we live in a Golden Age of superb shooting stuff. BUT, there is also the tendency for manufacturers to promote their new stuff as better than the old stuff. Sometimes that is true and sometimes it is not. Funny story, several years ago, I was hunting antelope with Pat Sinclair (ScenarShooter) on the Hougen Ranch out of Melstone, Montana. We found a really great buck feeding smack in the middle of a HUGE open wash. Pat ranged him at 300 yards. The problem was that we had about a 30mph wind dead from our left. I was shooting my favourite .280 Ackley with 140Ballistics at 3,150fps. I declined to take the shot. I'm a decent shot, but the risk of wounding a magnificent antelope was just to high. As it turned out, he eventually spooked and ran over a hill. Prolly twenty minutes later I killed a really bonzo buck antelope maybe a half mile from the original shot opportunity. At 200 yards and no wind ... no way to know, but I've always thought he was the SAME BUCK ... prolly was. If I'd been shooting one of the new Alphabet "Slick" bullets and had less hunting experience, I might have been suckered into taking the original shot. I dunno. Anyway, there has always been good stuff and there's always been new stuff and sometimes the new stuff turns out to be better ... and sometimes it just slinks back into obscurity. Time always tells. Just passing through; see you guys later. Blessings, Steve PS. Here's the buck Pat and I killed together. By the way, Pat is the real deal, an incredible hunter and a fine, fine man. A friend. I like your rant. Those sleek new bullets are here to stay, I'm sure, but the old guns and old bullets still get er done for me. We'll let the young bucks use those high BC pills while they are learning to shoot. They need all the help they can get.... . Pass the pre 64 and Winchester powerpoints..... ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/013_zpsaa2b4d1e.jpg) Hell, pass me a non pre 64 model 70 and powerpoints. I don't care  : ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/001-105_zps24af4785.jpg) Same load: 2 different rifles...
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,340
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,340 |
I always start with factory length, it it shoots sub MOA, I'm happy. Same here.
Don't roll those bloodshot eyes at me.
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