Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Y'all see the new Oklahoma "State Record" mule deer????

Apparently this deer was killed in Oklahoma within a few hundred yards of the NM/OK state line this past November and was scored yesterday and verified to be the new Oklahoma State Record non typical mule deer. 176" frame with an amazing 50" of trash

https://www.wildlifedepartment.com/outdoor-news/bring-your-antlers-march-rack-madness

What's interesting is that this deer lived on a ranch in New Mexico and was seen on the ranch a few days before it was allegedly killed 13 miles away as the crow flies in Oklahoma.


Here's Rick holding the sheds we picked up on the ranch where the deer lived compared to the new state record deer...

He knew you all were coming. Another leak.

No, hadn't seen it. Where was it killed?
I went down to the Rita Blanca National Grasslands this fall hoping to see one just like it though.
Mostly I just saw clouds of dust kicked up by antelope.

The other possibility is that the two bucks are related. Muleys travel long distances during the rut. That and I've seen a few old bucks that look very similar in antler development to some younger animals. Even pictures from say the 1940's that look very much like some of the really big bucks I've seen in the same area in the 90's. E

Deer that look similar? Deer that travel 13 miles? Say it isn't so!!!

.

It's the same deer just a year older

I sure would not bet against it.

Truly amazing.

IMO there is room for doubt that those antlers came from the same buck a year apart.

I've got three mule deer racks that look more alike than the ones in the photos do to each other. Each of my racks has a cheater point in exactly the same place and each cheater point is shaped the same, plus the general frame, length of tines and mass is very similar. Two came from within a mile of each other on the same ridge and the other came from a ridge over 20 miles away. Related? Yes. Same buck? No. The claim that the buck was seen on a ranch just before being shot is heavier evidence to me than the photos, if it can be proved.

The antlers in the photos could have come from the same buck but without DNA or something more than similarities, it's not iron clad proof to me. There are considerable differences.

I am not an expert on mule deer however, and defer to my betters on this.

I couldn't find any score for the muledeer. There was a couple whitetails at 245. If that is the case then this one in my living room would go well over 200. It is 24" inside spread on the main beams. John Lachuk told me it had one tooth left.

Drum-
Is the ranch you're talking about the one that has the big horn herd on it?

One thing I have learned from photographing elk herds is that antler shape is distinctive from one herd to the next.
So much so that given a couple good looks at an elks rack, one may not be able to identify the exact herd but you can usually rule out quite a few herds.
Elk are not deer of course but I suspect that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in regards to antler shape.

Great deer! It's definitely the same buck!
Drum- How wide and what did he measure inside?

I have my doubts. The sheds you showed us are characteristic of a antler degrading buck, i.e. one that's losing antler development as he ages. That might be true if the sheds came from an aging buck. But, like OK has posted, the only way to be sure is to do DNA testing.
As far as a breeding buck, or his off spring, traveling/wandering 13 miles that's not unheard of either. Migratory herds are well known to travel further than that. Younger bucks have been known to disperse that much and more.
Heck, where I hunt, one of the radio collared does went over 30 miles in a matter of a month, or less, when her water supply dried up. She was in her third trimester of her pergnancy. No known water as she crossed a rugged, very hot desert mountain range. After she settled in her new home, she gave birth to two healthy fawns. E

Things that make you go Hmmmm.........

Same deer. Pretty easy to see.

Say what?

It's the same deer and I didn't really post this up for debate as there's no debating that the sheds are from the buck that was killed. It's not difficult to see that it's the same deer and the deer was not that old of a deer

My money is on Drum. Tough pill to swallow when its your profession.

Drum, this is valuable to those of us less familiar with assessing antlers and I am learning, so don't hesitate to make the case. These things get argumentative but there is no need to argue when we point out similarities and differences. I've been studying these racks trying to figure out why you are so sure and have come around some. The two sets of antlers are more alike than I first thought.

The right side (left in the photos) of both sets are very similar, could fairly easily be the same buck with a year difference. It is the left side antler (right in pics) that looked so different that it removed it from the realm of sure thing to my less experienced eyes. Bucks add points, length and mass from year to year but seldom change the basic frame shape and main forks. That was my concern at first. But I traced out the G2, G3 etc. from shed to buck and now see where this buck could grow from the shed into the tagged buck by adding points and length without changing the basic frame.

I'm not used to seeing that much change, but most of our mule deer don't grow antlers nearly as big as where these come from.

A part of my question, as said earlier, comes from having several 170 class look alike racks MUCH closer in frame and details than these two, and all from dead deer. If made to look like sheds, two of the racks look so much alike except for size and mass that they would make a much more persuasive case that they came from the same buck a year apart. That is, more persuasive than these two sets in this thread.

I'll sit on the fence, and think that you are probably right, not because I grasp the evidence but because I have confidence in your judgment.

To be fair it's even more conclusive when you are able to hold the sheds in your hands and compare them to the deer in the pictures. That and we had the luxury of knowing the deer and seeing the deer for a couple seasons. It's always easier to identify these elk and deer when you're out looking at them year after year

What's interesting about this deer is that it really put on the inches because it wasn't an old deer. I told Rick Menefee this year when we were looking for it that this deer was primed to blow up this year, and he did. I would have given my left arm for Rick to have been able to take him home but unfortunately the week he was there was incredibly difficult as the animals were almost completely nocturnal. This is also an unusual deer for our area as we don't normally find them with this much trash

Same buck. I think it would have gotten even bigger. I'd bet that deer is only 5 1/2 max.

Yes sir, 5 1/2 years old. He would have morphed into one of those deer we only dream about given a year or two

Drum, I heard of a b&c muley killed about 25 miles nw of Odessa 10-15 years ago. F&G werent happy as they had pics of the deer from a ranch, heck-i cant remember, 10-25 miles away. They dropped it fearing they couldnt win in court.

I wonder if B&C could investigate before inclusion and request a lie detector test. I figure you might know and if you do know i would appreciate enlightenment.

Also, do you know what it scored? I would like to know how it compares to my SCI Texas record of 2016 at 260 inches.

Thanks, jag.

I reread and saw it was 176 with 50 inches of extras.

I'm not going to raise a stink about it and I'm not saying he killed the deer illegally. Its just interesting

Deleted.

Drum is right...and I can see how my post could have been construed incorrectly.

Hey Drum, how much did he put on between years? We had a 4.5 year old 170" wild deer put 35" on in a year with no feed. I wonder what year is the biggest jump for most deer.

I want to be very clear that I've never claimed that the hunter did anything wrong, much less poached the deer.

This deer went from 194" to 226". He would have really blown up next season IMO

Ya, I know you're not making any accusations...but the circumstances does make a guy wonder. Huge deer like this make some otherwise good folks lose their minds.

In 2010, I killed a moose that would be #5 in Montana if I actually scored him...and that is with single brows. I was accused of poaching it by some jealous guys who didn't know me. It didn't bother me much, but could see how it would ruffle some feathers. If the game wardens got involved, it WOULD have bothered me...

Really cool. Thanks for sharing HS!

I remember a similar case that occurred in NE Kalifornia some years ago. A very nice buck seen on the winter range after the season closed appeared at taxidermist some days later. Fish & Game investigated. They found fragments of volcanic rock impeded in an antler. Matched the rock found on the winter range, not of that found where the poacher said he killed it. He was convicted. E

So how far will a mule deer range under normal conditions?

Is 13 miles way out the question?

If I remember right,in one of Mike Eastman's books, he had found deer in Wyoming travelling over 100 miles between high country summer grounds, and winter grounds. I know 25 miles between summer and winter grounds is pretty common.

Depends on weather, doe density, buck to doe ratio, and during tough times water amongst other things.

If you know your area, you know how far they go from home range to rut and back...

My desert deer rut less than 2 miles from where they live and usually rut in the same areas every year...

If you know your herd, you can pick up on whether things add up or not, especially if you've been watching specific deer...

In migratory herds in Wyoming mule deer have been known to migrate up to 150 miles

That being said, the mule deer in our part of the world are a "non migratory" herd and their average range is 2400 acres, or 3.75 square miles according to a study done a few years back

If you made a rectangle with the SW corner being where the deer lived his life and was seen regularly and the far NE corner being where the deer was allegedly killed it amounts to almost 84 square miles

This is kind of off subject, but in recent years biologists have discovered the significance of the western Wyoming mule deer migration route...the longest ever recorded. The deer summer in the Hoback country up near Jackson and winter in the Red Desert, over 150 miles away...this is the migration that huntsonora mentioned.

It likely went even further, but interstate 80 stops the vast majority of them. There's resident deer in the Red Desert too, but the vast majority migrate there and then back out.

Hoback

Beautiful country

Good catch...auto'correct' really pisses me off sometimes.

During the fifteen years I lived here there have been two sightings of individual elk coming through. I have no idea where they came from or where they were going.

I figured it was auto correct

Not disputing you or this study, but less than a 4 sq/mile range sure doesn't seem like much in open country.

A few years back I killed a whitetail buck on my farm that was trail cammed over 3 miles away as the crow flies a couple weeks earlier.

Average is just that, average. It was a good study and the actual average listed was 1200 acres to 3600 acres.

We know they can wander farther and I've seen non migratory deer move a fair bit but again, you'd have to see what was left for where it allegedly went and the terrain covered

I thought last year someone posted that a whitetail buck collared just before the rut was shot several days later about 90 miles away. In Ky, 97 miles away? Anyone remember.

A nice WTail got by me once on a 19,000 acre place south end in archery season. It was killed a few wks later 4 miles north on the same ranch with a gun.

Ive heard of muley bucks bumped while being hunted and found later 8 miles away.

I met a guy a few years ago when I was working in Pinrdale Wyoming who was filming a documentary on the muledeer migrtion thru that area. I never saw the film but he was an interesting guy to visit with!

The deer that I hunt early, above timberline in Montana,fall off to the front to winter,and that can be 10 to 15 air miles. The deer that I hunt in Idaho are mixed. There is a strong resident herd that likely travels less than five air miles,but as the rut, and winter approach,other deer pour in from the back country,and some of those deer likely travel 20 to 30 miles.

OK, so it was a 5.5 yr. old buck. You know that from having watched him mature. He, and the other deer that lived with him, are not known to travel 13 miles to where he was suppose to have been killed. You have sheds, and this evidence. Have you ask state or federal authorities to investigate this ? E

Nice buck.

Nope. I've never claimed he did anything illegal. It's not a crime to say you killed a deer in a different location from where you actually killed him. I just can't figure out where that might be

Muleys in west Texas dont migrate, as i know Drum, but maybe not others, know.

Im thinking it would be very unusual to see one move 10 miles without being bumped or a water source drying up.

I watch the range of a group west of Andrews and they circulate over an area about 2x3 miles.

I dont know how far a buck in rut might travel to find a hot doe or how far away a buck might be able to smell one.

I have followed a small herd of bucks with a muzzle loader west of Chama while trying to get a shot at the big one. They started out in velvet and a week later it was gone. On Wednesday they had bloody horns and hanging velvet. The heard disappeared. I found the smaller bucks traveling nearby ridges. By the grace of God i accidently found the big one still travelling the same ridge and valley area the entire group had previously traveled together. I had been travelling through the original area trying to find him in other areas when i ran into a bunch of cattle and detoured around them when i saw him. He had kicked the others out.

The next and last evening of the hunt i was up a big pine on the side ridge i had seen him on the evening before and well below the main ridgeline he had to be bedded on. He got down to me just before dark.

A 285 gr maxiball out of a Thompson Hawken percussion hit him in the liver. My first 31 incher was a heavy high 5x5 counting brow tines.

I dont know if the rut was on concerning the buck in question, but theres no chance a bigger buck kicked him out or Drum would be aware of it.

The odds of the monster Drum was watching coincidentally disappearing and a different one so similar to it being taken nearby are astronomical.

I know nothing about W Texas, OK or NM mule deer nor their habits...as I generally hunt mule deer that migrate in WY, MT and ID. I do think that one constant factor of mule deer (or any critter) is that regardless of location, it is not necessarily the biggest antlered bucks that kick other bucks out of a herd and do the majority of breeding.

Deer are like people...some are more aggressive than others, regardless of their size or physical attributes. If this buck was only 5 1/2 years old, he was approaching his prime and possibly was kicking other bucks away from does, but one never knows...he could have been a complete pussy and moved on due to other, more aggressive bucks. I kind of doubt it, but who knows?

Huntsonora has made it clear there's no evidence of poaching...just that it is odd this buck moved so far so quickly. Huntsonora, was there a legit hunting season in NM that could have pressured this buck out of the area?

Yep. Lots of times smaller bucks are very aggressive and drive off deer with bigger racks. Especially so with whitetails.

Its been postulated by some students of deer behavior that m any monster deer dont get too excited by the rut and pretty much keep to themselves and become almost totally nocturnal.

I know had i been watching that deer and had herd about its having been taken soon after it happened, I would have been walking fencelines bordering my hunting area.

Coincidently, im not a big believer in coincidences-Devine intervention, yes.

I have some friends and acquaintances that are consistently very successful hunters. I've had people talk trash and make comments about my success, because I've been consistently lucky over the years. I know how hard I work to legally fill my tags and how hard my friends work for theirs. A lot of jealous guys around that don't get out of their trucks, let alone scout.

But...

One acquaintance that constantly kills big animals every year got popped this year filling his dad's tag on a monster in a tough to draw area where the son didn't have a tag.

Makes you question a lot of his trophies.

For an older buck to driven off by a younger buck, the older buck must have much smaller antlers. If they are close in antler development, they usually fight to settle this. However, if the older buck has lost interest in the rut, i.e. he is really old, he won't evn challenge the younger buck.
But no one, to my knowledge, has ever even theorized that younger bucks drive off older ones unless they fight first. Even then, they have to have similar antler development. E

Theres no such thing as consistently lucky, especially if you put in the effort and hours. Deserving and good is not luck.

O, I agree with the age thing, but i was referring to bigger whitetails being run off by smaller racked bucks, not necessarily older bucks.

I witnessed two different instances of medium sized ridge backed 8 points running a huge 8 and nice 10 point off does with some mild posturing.

Last fall I killed this deer 7Mi from where I saw him the 1st time 5 days earlier:



The 1st time I saw him I watched him tending/breeding a doe roughly 150yds away through 15x binocs for about 15min.

FIL and I killed mule deer that are very obviously closely related. They were 1yr apart and the kill sites are 8mi apart but in the same drainage.

Well ... not to throw fuel on the fire ... but ... I've been successfully hunting both mule deer and whitetails in Eastern Colorado and Western Kansas for 30 years. I do not find it surprising that a particular buck could move 13 miles in a short time. Particularly if it was pressured (read chased by an atv or vehicle). Numerous times I have scouted a particular buck for weeks ... right up until opening day and then found him miles away in another location (often unavailable to me) 24 hours later. Open country deer move readily. Mountain and canyon deer I know nothing about.

It's easy to feel proprietary about a deer you have a lot of time invested in ... especially when you have a client or friend who had hoped to harvest it. Reading between the lines I think there is speculation that this particular buck was "maneuvered" into another location. This could indeed be the case ... although it may not have been the hunter who killed it that did the "maneuvering." Hopefully he was just in the right place at the right time. There are a lot of "road hunters' on the plains. I've watched them chase deer and antelope for years. I've also seen them get ticketed ... sometimes months later ... because they were sure no one was watching. I've also witnessed them push deer and antelope right to other hunters (including myself and members of my hunting party) who the roadies had no idea were present.

This could be a case of "wait and see who knows what."

Having hunted and guided in eastern CO for close to 25 years myself i would say that you are not wrong at all. I've seen deer move 2-4 miles sometimes more overnight, especially if pressured. Down where we are in NM it's not exactly "open country" although there is a little right on the fringe of where we are and there is no agricultural influence like there is in eastern CO so they don't have to travel a section or two just to find tumbleweeds piled in a fencerow or a CRP field for cover. There are a ton of cuts, draws and deep canyons and geographically speaking the odds are astronomical that this deer left an area with no active season, zero pressure, tons of does, water, food and cover and went to another state that had an active season and a lot of pressure

All I'm saying is that I don't think the deer was killed where they said it was killed but I could be wrong. If the deer left and traveled that far and bedded in that exact spot on that little ranch they need to be buying lottery tickets because that is unfreakingbelievable.

I'm not saying it was poached and I'm certainly not upset that somebody else killed it as that's not how I am. Sometimes it's just hard to swallow some of the stories if you know what I mean. Knowing where the deer lived and what he would have travel through to get to the other spot makes me curious is all.

Though I don't know Drummond personally, I know men like him, dedicated guides with a passion for and deep knowledge of the game they chase, knowing traits as I know my kids. I suspect there's more to this story that is not for public consumption. My money is still on Drum.

I agree with you ctsmith, and I do know Drum personally. If there's a more knowledgeably mule deer guy than him, I've yet to run across him, and I've been chasing those freaking things since I was 11 yrs old, for over 35 years. When I'm baffled (still quite often when mule deer hunting) Drum is the first resource I use.

Drum:

"I'm not saying it was poached and I'm certainly not upset that somebody else killed it as that's not how I am. Sometimes it's just hard to swallow some of the stories if you know what I mean. Knowing where the deer lived and what he would have travel through to get to the other spot makes me curious is all."

Yup. I hear you. You know your country and your gut feeling is probably right. I just never discount the "dumb luck" factor completely.

Why not a twin brother?

Unless you have some genetic fingerprinting, you are guessing. Might be right. Might not be. The genes won't lie.

13 miles is nothing, but this does not have to be one deer.

May God forbid there be two of you.

Only way that deer leaves unpressured home range country with no human activity or scent with plenty of cover, feed, water and sex for a small ranch heavily hunted and with lots of game cameras and no pics of it and with the scent and sounds of human/vehicle activity is if it was transported there by aliens, got a brain worm or was transported there dead.

Good show Ok. You have a real trophy there, now, by hook or crook.

Amazing what Mule deer will do if a Cougar starts working an area. 13 miles is nothing.

Yep!

They just blow clean out of the area do they?

In West Texas the does are more homebodies but have a range almost 3 times that of the whitetails. The bucks fifty miles would not be unusual although 10-15 is more typical.

For lack of food or water they will trapse off across the desert to another mountain range on a fairly regular basis.

Very true...telling the truth to others hunters about where I killed a big deer cost me a place to hunt as big money leased up the spot. Hunted on more than one place that the owner specifically asked me to say I killed the deer somewhere else as he did not want hunters coming to ask him if they could hunt.

Really nice deer, be great to get one like that.

That is true. Darn, forgot about that, but most ive seen move 2-4 miles.

Yep, but poaching one in a state out of season and crossing a state line is a Lacey Act violation and has resulted in prison time.