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All & especially the Gunwriters:

This is a bit of old history, however, I came across some pretty cheap Federal ammo loaded with this bullet and was attempting to figure out why it was discontinued.

I have been doing some internet research on this, and could not locate anything convincing.

Wasn't clear if it was for technical or business reasons. From a technical perspective, it require different loading data and maybe they had some QC issues, but wasn't clear how this may have contributed to the decision to discontinue.

I suppose my primary concern surrounds the overall performance of the bullet in terms of inherent accuracy and terminal ballistics. Were there any concerns with this bullet from that perspective?

Specifically, the "stuff" I am looking at is the 180 gr bullet loaded in 300 win mag. I would be this on whitetails and nothing larger. I guess a key question would be - do the Deep Curls offer anything over the Hot Core bullet when it comes to Whitetails?

Thanks

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Last edited by BlackBart; 03/14/17.
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My understanding is that somehow the Deep Curl bullets were more subject to creating pressure spikes than the old HotCor's. I'm not sure if it's true or just marketing (maybe the HotCor has a cult like following?) but that's what I recall.


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BlackBart,

Here's a post I made not long ago involving this subject, on a thread that started about Speer Hot-Cor bullets, but eventually involved Federal Fusion bullets and Speer Deep Curls, both which are made by Speer using the same process:

"Eventually Federal Fusion ammo became so popular Speer decided to introduce the bullets as handloading components. But the marketing whiz then at Speer decided they needed a different, spiffy name--which was really odd because "Fusion" was already widely recognized among hunters. A lot of people thought the new Speers should be called Fusion bullets to take advantage of that fact, but the marketing whiz insisted, and came up with the Deep Curl name. Deep Curls were also going to cost just about the same as Hot-Cors, and were supposed to replace Hot-Cors. But for quite a while very few Deep Curls or Hot-Cors were available--and when Deep Curls did become more available, they cost significantly more. Apparently so many hunters refused to buy Deep Curls (instead switching to Interlocks or other relatively inexpensive hunting bullets) that Speer decided to drop 'em and start making Hot-Cors again."

I'll add that yes, Deep Curls did result in higher pressures than Hot-Cors, which is why Speer often introduced a Deep Curl of slightly different weight than the "equivalent" Hot-Cor, to avoid the problem of shooters just switching bullets and using the same powder charge. But in other calibers they introduced the same weights, especially traditional weights like 1560 and 165 in .30 caliber, which probably resulted in pressure problems when the same powder charges were used.

In answer to your last question, I personally don't think Deep Curls offered anything over Hot-Cors for hunting whitetails. A good illustration is the 165-grain .30 caliber Hot-Cor I used to kill an average whitetail buck in the 1970's. Muzzle velocity was around 2800 fps and the buck was running away at 100 yards, angling just enough for a bullet to slide into the rear of the left-side ribs. At the shot he stumbled a little ways and fell, and I found the bullet perfectly mushroomed in the right shoulder, retaining 85% (that is not a misprint) of its weight.

I dunno how a Deep Curl could have done any better--but that is also far from the only Hot-Cor I've used on deer. They've ranged in size from the 105-grain 6mm to the 200-grain .338, including some 140 6.5mm's shot from the .264 Winchester Magnum at 3200 fps. All worked just fine.


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I haven't stuck any Deep Curls in an animal (yet) but using a middle-of-the-road load supplied by Speer, my Zastava M98 with 1:220mm (1:866") twist will put the 175-grain bullets well within an inch at 100 yards.


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[Linked Image]


Left to right, Speer hotcore, Speer deep curl, Hornady interlock

All 150gr .270

The Deep curl has the heaviest jacket and appears would make a fine Elk bullet?

I was surprised at how thin the Hornady jacket is how small the interlock is.

The Hotcore was just as expected


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This topic comes up regularly. I tried them in 6mm, .277", and .284". Very accurate bullet with little load work up. The .277"s I had were closer to .278" and that may be the reason they shot so well and the reason Speer recommended against using conventional data for other bullets of the same weight.

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In the 1980's I was in love with Hotcors in .270 & .284 but I no longer use them because the extra rounds in my Model 70 magazine would be deformed from the recoil. They are a great performer on deer.

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irfubar,

Core and jacket hardness also affect bullet expansion. I also notice the sectioning isn't evenly done, which results in an unrealistic idea of jacket thickness.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
irfubar,

Core and jacket hardness also affect bullet expansion. I also notice the sectioning isn't evenly done, which results in an unrealistic idea of jacket thickness.


John,
I suspect you are correct. I was simply curious so I sectioned the bullets to compare and see whats inside.

I purchased the Deep curls at a reduced price when they closed them out.
I only have one box and was wondering if they would be practical for elk?

My mainstay is Partitions and will probably stick with them.
I dont find enough elk to experiment with different bullets.




Originally Posted by Judman
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Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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My experience with Fusions and Deep Curls is that while they hold together, they also expand widely, which limits penetration. Haven't done a side-by-side test, but would guess they won't penetrate as much as a Partition.

Among other kinds of media, I use stacks dry newspaper to test bullet performance on "tough" stuff. It seems to simulate hitting substantial bone more than any other media tried, giving a good idea of comparative penetration for various bullets. Shooting a couple of different bullets side-by-side into the same stack gives a fair idea of comparative penetration and expansion.


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So is there any reason to deviate from the old Hornady Interlock for "deer" sized game and the TSX/TTSX for the larger, more difficult to wrap critters? This is what I have done and all has been fine.


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Originally Posted by EdM
So is there any reason to deviate from the old Hornady Interlock for "deer" sized game and the TSX/TTSX for the larger, more difficult to wrap critters? This is what I have done and all has been fine.



Ed,
In theory that is fine. When I head out each day hunting I may find elk, but more likely deer.

Besides being a rifle loonie means we are obligated to experiment. whistle


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
BlackBart,
"Eventually Federal Fusion ammo became so popular Speer decided to introduce the bullets as handloading components. But the marketing whiz then at Speer decided they needed a different, spiffy name--which was really odd because "Fusion" was already widely recognized among hunters. A lot of people thought the new Speers should be called Fusion bullets to take advantage of that fact, but the marketing whiz insisted, and came up with the Deep Curl name.


So...Factory Federal Fusion ammunition is the same sectioned deep curl bullet in irfubars photo above?


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No, they changed the Deep Curls a little, but they were made by exactly the same process as the Fusions, and worked very similarly.


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Ed,

Missed your post earlier. Hard to beat that pair of big game bullets!


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While I agree that cup and cores are adequate for whitetails, I like what a Fusion/DeepCurl does. Here is a .308" 180 DeepCurl at 2700 fps that I caught:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I have a fairly accurate cross section of one as well but no pic at the moment.

I would like to see Speer offer this bullet as a component again.


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I doubt they're going to. Based on what I know the sticking point was price. They'd hoped to be able to sell them at a price level competitive with not only Hot-Cors but Interlocks and Sierra's GameKings and ProHunters. But the eventual real-world retail price was significantly higher, so most hunters bought other brands.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I doubt they're going to. Based on what I know the sticking point was price. They'd hoped to be able to sell them at a price level competitive with not only Hot-Cors but Interlocks and Sierra's GameKings and ProHunters. But the eventual real-world retail price was significantly higher, so most hunters bought other brands.


I'm betting they could do it if they brought it back as a "premium" bullet. Those are impressive photos rovert posted.

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Yeah, I'm not expecting a return, but would like to see them available again. The few boxes I saw on the shelves were priced very closely to cup and cores but I never really saw any availability locally, just a box here and there. Maybe they weren't making the profit they wanted with the boxes I saw. With Fusion ammo being priced so closely to blue box, though, I would have thought they could offer the bullets near the targeted price point. I know nothing of the pricing structure of factory ammo vs components, though.

Anyway, I thought they had a winner. I have to wonder if the pressure issues weren't a significant factor. I haven't experienced any problems but have only worked with the 180's in a couple of rifles, one of which is loaded quite light.

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Maybe, but that bullet was shot from a .308 at 2700 fps. When pushed harder Deep Curls don't hold up as well, because the core is relatively soft and the jacket relatively thin.

Contrary to what many hunters believe, thin-jacketed bonded bullets can come apart when pushed fast, or even when they hit heavy bone. The performance of a bonded bullet also depends on jacket design, not just the core sticking to the jacket. I know this because I've seen it happen with more than one brand of relatively thin-jacketed bonded bullet.

Speer also hasn't shown any particular ability to make or market premium bullets in recent years. They did pretty well with the Grand Slam for a long time, but then eliminated the dual-core construction maybe 8-10 years ago, essentially turning them into heavy-jacketed Hot Cors. I shot five of the new Grand Slams, 200's from a .300 Winchester Magnum, into dry newspaper to see how they held up. Three did fine, but the other two lost their cores and only penetrated half as deeply.

There are plenty of well-established "premium" bullets on the market these days. It's going to take more than a thin-jacketed bonded bullet or a thicker-jacketed cup-and-core to take much market share from Barnes TSX's, Cutting Edge Raptors, Hornady Interbonds and GMX's, Swift A-Frames and Scirocco II's, and Nosler's line-up of everything from Partitions to E-Tips.


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