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Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 88
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 88 |
Just got a Sinclair concentricity gage and need some help evaluating what I am seeing, and what I might be able to do to fix it. I made up 20 rounds of 7-08 rem tonight, checking run-out on the necks during each step. Was working with twice fired Norma brass. Checked out the necks before I did anything, all were less than .002".
My first step was full length sizing. Redding series A dies. I size with the expander removed, and bump the shoulder .001"-.002". Necks after this sizing remained .002" or under.
I expand the necks using a neck sizing die (again Redding) with the die loose in the press, and the expander loose in the die. I feel this lets the expander find its own way as I push it down into the neck. To be clear here, I only run the case up high enough to push the expander through the neck, and then back it out. Most necks still ran .002" or under, with one or two of them at .003".
Primed and charged the cases.
On to the seating. Standard Redding series A seating die. I was loading Hornady 139 SPs. Was disappointed with what I found after seating. Indicator tip was running on the bearing surface of the bullet, just behind the ogive. Inconsistent is the best way to describe the readings. I would say almost half ran at .002" or under. Five or six of them ran between .003" and .004". The other four or five ran between .005" and .008".
This is the first time I've been able to check concentricity so would appreciate any insight you all might have. Something wrong with my process? Or perhaps this is somewhat typical with a standard seating die?
Thanks for the help.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,259
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,259 |
When seating, instead of seating all in one stroke, try starting the bullet down, turn the case, seat a little deeper, turn the case and finish...........I usually take three strokes.....
get your fingers out of the way between.....
Having said all that I'm not sure anything needs to be 'fixed'
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,017
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,017 |
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,017
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,017 |
Just got a Sinclair concentricity gage and need some help evaluating what I am seeing, and what I might be able to do to fix it. I made up 20 rounds of 7-08 rem tonight, checking run-out on the necks during each step. Was working with twice fired Norma brass. Checked out the necks before I did anything, all were less than .002".
My first step was full length sizing. Redding series A dies. I size with the expander removed, and bump the shoulder .001"-.002". Necks after this sizing remained .002" or under.
I expand the necks using a neck sizing die (again Redding) with the die loose in the press, and the expander loose in the die. I feel this lets the expander find its own way as I push it down into the neck. To be clear here, I only run the case up high enough to push the expander through the neck, and then back it out. Most necks still ran .002" or under, with one or two of them at .003".
Primed and charged the cases.
On to the seating. Standard Redding series A seating die. I was loading Hornady 139 SPs. Was disappointed with what I found after seating. Indicator tip was running on the bearing surface of the bullet, just behind the ogive. Inconsistent is the best way to describe the readings. I would say almost half ran at .002" or under. Five or six of them ran between .003" and .004". The other four or five ran between .005" and .008".
This is the first time I've been able to check concentricity so would appreciate any insight you all might have. Something wrong with my process? Or perhaps this is somewhat typical with a standard seating die?
Thanks for the help. Have you ever tried using a regular ol FL die with the expander set-up the way it's supposed to be? You might just be surprised how little run-out you get if you adjust your dies properly. It's obvious that your process and your fancy die is over rated... All those extra steps are a waste of time. In the end, it only matters what the finished product says the TIR is...  . Why you guys fu ck around with all this extra bullchit is beyond me... Just to be clear, I do use a concentricity gauge and the run-out on loaded ammo is all less than .003" with plain jane ol FL RCBS reloading die set bought from the LGS... Keep it simple at first, then step on up to the big boy toys if you are shooting competition where you need less than .001" TIR... Some guys might think it's your bullet choice. I call BS on that right now, as I load interlocks with minimal run-out. You got to learn how to set that seater die up for minimal run-out and you'll be golden. I was just out a couple weekends ago and shot some loads from my 338wm that were all less than .002" TIR. Here are the results: ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/IMG_0960_zps7bzcjxgx.jpg) Keep this chit simple.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 88
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 88 |
So which is it. Sizing or seating. Im not screwing the necks up during sizing, the measurements show that.
As far as wasting time with extra steps, it was only one step, doesnt take long, and I have the time.
If you have any pointers as to how I should be setting up the seating die Im all ears.
Thanks
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,482
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
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Get yourself a LEE Collet neck die and a Forster Competition Seater die and thank me later 
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,349
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,349 |
I was going to suggest the collet die. Not a big investment, worth a try. I use one when loading for bolt guns. I also like the factory crimp die, but that's neither here or there if you don't tend to have them in a rifle to get recoiled a bunch.
I am the NorthEast WoodsBeast!
"System version 1.3, divorced"
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664 |
Get a Redding carbide expander ball and decapping rod. The carbide expander ball floats eliminating the need for the neck die to expand necks.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
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I'd say your sizing practice is fine if you are maintaining 0.002" on average. A few little tweaks might get you down a bit further...or not.
I'd be willing to bet that if you pulled the bullets on those few loaded cartridges that have higher runout, you would find that there is a bit of variation in the neck wall thickness. If you're really worried about it, there are calipers and gauges just for it. Or you can mark them and see if they load crooked again after firing, sizing, and reloading. If they do, you know there is likely a problem with that case. You could either discard or turn the neck.
Or you can just buy a tru-tool and correct the few and call it good. You didn't say what your loading for or just how important accuracy is.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,949
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,949 |
Get yourself a LEE Collet neck die and a Forster Competition Seater die and thank me later Yes, Better dies make a huge difference. I skip the Lee collet die and just use the Forster Competition sets. Run out goes away.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,232
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 13,232 |
I like the Redding body die, Lee Collet neck sizer, and Redding or Forster Competion seating die combo.
Did you sort your brass for neck thickness variance? If not that will show up on the concentricity gauge.
With the Lee Collet neck sizer, neck thickness variance will have lees impact on the final concentricity reading.
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
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Joined: May 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2005
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In all fairness a man is gong to end up w/a couple that are .003+ to .005 out of a box of brass when loaded. Hunt w/everything that's .003 and below and you'll be good. Don't let these guys fool you into thinking all of they're ammo has .oo1 or no run out. powdr
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Joined: Aug 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
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I believe I saw JB in a video where he said anything up to .005 is good for hunting.
That being said, anything over .003 sees my trutool. I'm retired.
Last edited by NVhntr; 03/14/17.
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
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Joined: May 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
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I try to get anything I fire in a rifle that is intended to be halfway accurate to .002" or under. It doesn't always happen, but...
What I have noticed is that those unexplained flyers seemed to have gone away. I don't shoot any better, but the groups are rounder.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,659
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2008
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I usually take three strokes.....
Ha!
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,834 |
I think your run out range is fine given that one has not been completely anal about his brass prep. I'd venture annealing then neck reaming/turning might knock it down a couple more thousandths.
I see no issue what so ever with attempting generate consistent ammo whether it be a bench or sporter unit.
Last edited by 1minute; 03/14/17.
1Minute
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Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 88
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 88 |
Thanks for replies. I'm fully aware that I dont "need" perfect ammo to kill deer, which by the way is the intended purpose of the rifle. Im interested in how to make my reloads better because I want to, not because I have to. Fact is reloading is just as big of a hobby for me as shooting and hunting. I enjoy it a lot and have learned a ton right here on the fire.
Back to business. In my mind the most inconsistent part of my process seems to be seating. Being I checked the necks at each stage and everything seemed cool until seating, I would think that would be the place to start.
Those of you who have used the benchrest/competition seaters, do you see an obvious difference compared to a standard die. Im willing to make the investment if it eliminates a variable for me.
And does anybody have any idea what bsa is talking about re: setting up my seati g die for minimal run-out? Not sure what options there really are with a standard Redding? Insert die, screw seater plug down to set desired length, maybe Im missing something.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289 |
Your initial results are what I found when I first started checking concentricity Before you spend $$$ on expensive tools give this a go ... it works for me. First, I ream the case mouth in two steps. Use a standard 45 degree reamer to bevel the mouth and then use a VLD reamer with a couple of backwards twists to knock to edge off. It will make you bullets seat silky smooth with no hang up at the case mouth. If they hang up it can induce run out. When seating the bullet I raise the ram (just contact only) and check with my fingertips to see if the case tilts/wobbles/moves on the shellholder. If it tilts then rotate the case and check again. Do this before the bullet ever enters the case mouth. The idea is to make sure that the bullet starts perfectly straight. If it starts straight it will remain straight(er). If it starts crookedy it will induce run out. Rotating the case after the bullet has entered the neck won't change anything. Once the bullet starts in the neck ram it home. Don't expect every round to come out perfect but you can reduce the number of rounds that are way off. Sorting necks will also make a difference. That's my two cents.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,817
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,817 |
Another help with standard seating dies is the Lyman M-die, used for expanding the case mouth. This would replace the second expansion step the OP does. With proper adjustment the mandrel expands the case mouth with a step (not a flare) of slightly greater than bullet diameter. You can finger start the bullet straight into the case without it tipping during the seating stroke of the ram. Setting B: ![[Linked Image]](http://images10.newegg.com/ProductImage/A04K_1_201607181604959708.jpg) Cutaway: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.yorkguns.com/filedepository/productimages/lyman/10499%20lyman%20neck%20expanding%20m%20die.jpg) This type of expander is also great for ironing dings out of the necks of new brass.
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