Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Bullet run-out help

That makes sense fish, thanks. I like the idea of feeling to see if the case tries to tilt a bit at first contact, should be a good way to see if you're out of whack before driving it home.

I can definitely feel some bullets getting a better start than others. I assume this isnt helped by the fact they are flat based bullets. Probably tougher to give them a good start.

I have been using a vld tool and only a few quick turns. I'll try more of a bevel and see how I do.

Mathman, I like that idea a lot too. Would you run any type of crimp after seating or just leave the small step as is?

I've left many thousands as is, probably 99% of the time. But there's noting wrong with applying a very light crimp just to smooth it in, not crimping into the bullet at all.

I've gone to the Redding body die, lee collet die, & Forster seater too. I have Forster benchrest full length sizers too but they don't give the straightness of the body/collet die setup.

I'd say your problem is mostly in your sizing, necks running out at .002" will result in more runout at the ogive because it's further out on the lever arm. I'd go back to the regular full length die, I suspect you'll get better numbers than that.

They, like any FL die, work much better when the neck section of the die is of a diameter such that the sized brass is just lightly kissed by the expander ball on the way out. The nice thing about Forster is they will hone to suit.

I've got two FL Forster dies that I've had honed, a 6BR & 6.5x47L. I completely removed the expander balls , they work great too & are a big improvement. I didn't mention that option because I thought that might be throwing too much at the OP.

The best advice I think is to get rid of expander balls all together, they're the source of a lot of problems. Whether that's by the body/collet die combo, the honed Forster die, or a bushing neck sizer/body die it doesn't really matter, all of those are a big step up. My two honed dies are used with Lapua brass which I think is part of the reason it works so well. If you're gonna use cheap brass then the collet die is probably better or else you need to neck turn.

Good stuff guys thanks.

I don't think there is a single answer to your question, lots of things induce runout, and lots of things will improve concentricity. I've experimented with a few things, and there are many more things to try. I think turning necks is a good first step, helped my runout. Didn't make a lot of sense to me to have brass of various thickness wrapped around a bullet and then hope to see minimal runout. Trimming necks helps. Next is to use higher quality tools. As many have stated the Forster dies are well reviewed. The Lee Collet die is well reviewed. I've settled in to using Wilson hand dies. The runout results have gotten better for me with Wilson dies. But I'm going to try some Forster and Widden dies too.

A consistent runout I feel shows consistency in your loading practices. If you do the same thing, with the same components all the time, you should see consistency in the readings. That's one part to segregate from minimizing runout as a separate measure.

For the poster that's worried about why we would go to such lengths to minimize runout, it's a hobby. Learning one way to do things is a stimulating start. Learning several more continues the interest in the hobby. If the goal was to have some minimalist financial target, or to get done with it - yeah, we could surely make it through life just fine with the one way learned first.

One thing I would like to get a better idea of is at what point run-out will show obvious effects on accuracy, and I realize how hard it is generalize here. All my current rifles are hunting rigs with sporter weight barrels. The only after market barrel being a douglas on my 700 mountain 7-08, in factory dupe contour.

I believe I have seen MuleDeer write that doesnt see issues arise until you're over .005" but im not sure if he was speaking to factory hunting rifles or more benchrest type guns.

An interesting test is to check the run-out on some factory ammo that shoots well in one of your rifles.

You're thinking along the right lines. How much runout affects performance depends on what the system (rifle, optics, target selection, etc) can resolve. A full on BR rig has the potential to show more than an off the rack sporter.

A friend of mine inherited a number of ammo cans full of 7.62x51 Lake City Match ammo, both M118 and M852 varieties. That is, 308 ammo loaded with 173 and 168 grain bullets on top of IMR4895 for 2550-2600 fps.

Long story short: I put a bunch on my Sinclair fixture and segregated by runout into batches. I got my friend to shoot them without knowing what he was testing. One test was with a Ruger 77 MkII with a 3-9x40 hunting scope, a known good shooter with straight cartridges. With the runout segregated LC match the improvement cutoff was .005". In a later, similar test my Rem 700 5R Milspec showed improvement down to .003" runout.

Another thing I learned working with the Lake City match ammo in several accurate rifles is, at least to 300 yards, that powder charge variations I expect few on this site would find acceptable in their own handloads had little effect on precision compared to bad runout.

What level of variation did you find with the lake city. Change weight is one of the things I feel I might be too picky about.

An interesting thing. When I had my 243 built, I gave the gunsmith my dies,as he was going to do some load development. He got really tight groups with the occasional flier. He found my dies were putting out a round with moderate run out about every 5th round. He set the rounds with run out aside, and reshot the groups. When he shot the rounds with Run out, he found that they were the ones causing the fliers. Everything else was tight. I bought new Redding competition dies, no more problems.

That is an unhappy thought, as I trickle powder but I don't check run-out... I guess a Sinclair concentrically tool may be on the wish list.

I while back I wanted to closely reproduce a milspec precision 308 type round called Mk 316 Mod 0 whose propellant is IMR 4064, a long kernel extruded powder. The specs called for an average charge weight of 41.75 grains. Here's my old post about it:

Yep, I check run out but throw my powder charge. It will get one miles further as far as accuracy is concerned ☺

As far as seating the bullet the Forster Benchrest Seater is worth its weight in gold. For the OP...the Forster Benchrest Seater holds the case and bullet in perfect alignment while it seats the bullet by use of a sliding sleave. The Redding Competition Seater works the same way but costs about $45 more. I prefer the Forster because it comes with a seating stem that will seat VLD type bullets or non VLD where as the Redding die you have buy a VLD compatible stem seperate.


Trystan

I used a couple of the suggestions here and saw improvements. Another batch of 20 produced the same way I made the first batch with 2 changes. First, I was more aggressive with chamfering the case mouth. Second, I was much more careful and gentle about starting the bullets. Used as little pressure as possible and if it didnt seem to slide in easily, I rotated the case until it did. 19 Rounds with .001 or .002 runout, one with .003. Much better consistency.

I will still probably invest in another seating die. I can see on the bullets that the plug is only contacting near the the bullet tip where the plugs taper ends. This can't be ideal for consistent results. Seems like the Forster Benchrest has done well for many of you. Thanks again for the help.

Congratulations !

You're there as far minimal bullet runout with the dies you're using. Your results are excellent. The next step would be be to start sorting necks by thickness but even with best seater you won't be able to take full advantage of it until you have consistent brass with no more that .0015" variance in thickness.

Here's the other reality of trying to gain a minute improvement in runout. It all depends on the accuracy potential of your rifle. If it's not an absolute tack driver you could be spinning your wheels and unlikely to see any improvements in groups. Long ago I found out that biggest factor in accuracy is the rifle itself. You can craft the finest custom handloads but if you don't have a rifle that shoots you won't turn a turd into bench rest gun.

How's it shoot?

At this point you'll gain more by fine tuning the loads - powder charge, seating depth, bullet type and weight, etc, etc, etc..

fish head - very good post. There are stages along the way in the pursuit of accuracy, and most are satisfied to step off at one of the stages, while others prefer to keep advancing.

Not to pollute the thread with the mention of golf, but I have an excellent book put out by Golf Digest that breaks topics into "Breaking 100", "Breaking 90", and "Breaking 80" with tips for golfers who fit into each category. It would be interesting to see accuracy improvement methods divided into similar categories.