Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Bullet run-out help

Just got a Sinclair concentricity gage and need some help evaluating what I am seeing, and what I might be able to do to fix it. I made up 20 rounds of 7-08 rem tonight, checking run-out on the necks during each step. Was working with twice fired Norma brass. Checked out the necks before I did anything, all were less than .002".

My first step was full length sizing. Redding series A dies. I size with the expander removed, and bump the shoulder .001"-.002". Necks after this sizing remained .002" or under.

I expand the necks using a neck sizing die (again Redding) with the die loose in the press, and the expander loose in the die. I feel this lets the expander find its own way as I push it down into the neck. To be clear here, I only run the case up high enough to push the expander through the neck, and then back it out. Most necks still ran .002" or under, with one or two of them at .003".

Primed and charged the cases.

On to the seating. Standard Redding series A seating die. I was loading Hornady 139 SPs. Was disappointed with what I found after seating. Indicator tip was running on the bearing surface of the bullet, just behind the ogive. Inconsistent is the best way to describe the readings. I would say almost half ran at .002" or under. Five or six of them ran between .003" and .004". The other four or five ran between .005" and .008".

This is the first time I've been able to check concentricity so would appreciate any insight you all might have. Something wrong with my process? Or perhaps this is somewhat typical with a standard seating die?

Thanks for the help.

Get yourself a LEE Collet neck die and a Forster Competition Seater die and thank me later

I usually take three strokes.....

I've gone to the Redding body die, lee collet die, & Forster seater too. I have Forster benchrest full length sizers too but they don't give the straightness of the body/collet die setup.

I'd say your problem is mostly in your sizing, necks running out at .002" will result in more runout at the ogive because it's further out on the lever arm. I'd go back to the regular full length die, I suspect you'll get better numbers than that.

Another thing I learned working with the Lake City match ammo in several accurate rifles is, at least to 300 yards, that powder charge variations I expect few on this site would find acceptable in their own handloads had little effect on precision compared to bad runout.

That is an unhappy thought, as I trickle powder but I don't check run-out... I guess a Sinclair concentrically tool may be on the wish list.

I threw together a similar batch for my range trip this afternoon. FC brass, F210M primers, thrown charges averaging 41.75 grains of a current lot of IMR4064, topped off by a Berger 175 OTM seated to 2.8" for a magazine fit.

These were fired over my Oehler 35P at a 100 yard target through a Rem 700 5R Milspec fitted with a SS 6x42MQ.

A fifteen shot string produced an average velocity of 2580 fps, sample standard deviation 9.5 fps, and the last ten fired on a fresh target went into a 3/4" group.

Not bad for a spec load with no tuning.

That is an unhappy thought, as I trickle powder but I don't check run-out... I guess a Sinclair concentrically tool may be on the wish list.

Congratulations !

You're there as far minimal bullet runout with the dies you're using. Your results are excellent. The next step would be be to start sorting necks by thickness but even with best seater you won't be able to take full advantage of it until you have consistent brass with no more that .0015" variance in thickness.

Here's the other reality of trying to gain a minute improvement in runout. It all depends on the accuracy potential of your rifle. If it's not an absolute tack driver you could be spinning your wheels and unlikely to see any improvements in groups. Long ago I found out that biggest factor in accuracy is the rifle itself. You can craft the finest custom handloads but if you don't have a rifle that shoots you won't turn a turd into bench rest gun.

How's it shoot?

At this point you'll gain more by fine tuning the loads - powder charge, seating depth, bullet type and weight, etc, etc, etc..

I've gone to the Redding body die, lee collet die, & Forster seater too.

If you want the best ammo you can get (without turning necks) the above method is what works best for me.

Plus keeping your necks annealed & seating the bullet in 3 short strokes rather than one single stroke.

Never don't work.

MM

Haven't read this thread, only skimmed it, but here's how to get rid of runout.

1 - Redding bushing sizer and Comp seater

My Norma experience in regards to neck wall variance has been hit or miss. Norma 300 WM is good, Norma 280 Rem has been bad. Same with Nosler, some good, some bad. Never had any bad Lapua.

To the OP, and it may have been mentioned already, grab a neck wall variance jig and toss anything over .001.

If you strictly hold this tolerance the per piece price of garden variety brass may approach Lapua/Norma level because of the reject rate. That's what I found with the QC slide in mass market brass that seemed to start in 2008. I wonder what happened about then?

ctsmith, Lapua brass is some good stuff and I've had the same results as you.
I haven't had the best of luck with some of the other brands. From some of the OP comments I was thinking he wasn't interested in dropping whatever brass he was useing. My comment was geared toward the advantage of useing the lee die in this type of situation though I didn't convey the message very well. Over the years I have a pretty good stash of brass that isn't Lapua or Norma and its one reason I also went to useing the lee neck die.☺



Trystan

Originally Posted By Trystan

"Ive shot so many sub 2" 500 yd groups with a stock tikka I've lost count. Mount a scope and go hunt."





Trystan,

I (and I am sure many others) are still waiting for you to school us on how to consistently shoot sub 2" groups at 500 yards, with a fixed 6x scope.


I think you mentioned "Next week" a couple weeks ago?




I am ready to be schooled.

The larger the case capacity the smaller the affect of accuracy from the amount of powder variatio

I sure wouldn't worry about a few rounds coming out over .003. I would either buy or make a Tru Tool ( They ain't that hard to make). Fix the problem rounds and go shoot. A person can waste a lot of time and spend money tryingto figure out and fix a problem that doesn't matter.

I think along time ago,Mathman posted that those rounds that had run out and were fixed did not shoot quite as good as rounds that that had no appreciable run out to begin with.

I am not a bench rest shooter and he is by far probably a better shooter than I, but I have no seen any difference.

I usually load a 100 rounds at a time.I may get 8-10 that surpass .003 run out. I fix those with my home made tool, mark them and usually use them as fouling shots when I go check my scope zero before hunting season.Since I only use 3-4 rounds to check zero and 1-3 rounds hunting out of that 100 I loaded,I run out of those fouling rounds long before I run out of the others.

One thing I tried was ammo straightened to a tolerance vs. ammo "naturally" within the same tolerance. I worked with .003" runout. What I found was if it took about .004" or more bending to get within tolerance, those cartridges didn't shoot groups as consistently small as naturally in tolerance ammo.

I believe you're referring to this:



The difference occurred when there was significant straightening to be done. Small amounts of straightening didn't screw things up.

Mathman, so those problem rounds started with .007 or more run-out?

Mackay,

If you wish to be schooled pay attention. A picture on the internet is worth a thousand lies. If I was truly a dishonest liar I'd post up some 100 yd target pics and claim they were all shot at 500. Nobody would know the difference. Its called deductive reasoning. There's a reason why I offered a real life demonstration. I proposed to offer tangible evidence that can be believed without any doubt yet everyone declined that offer. Yet everyone begs for pictures on the internet worth a thousand lies. When a man ask for a picture worth a thousand lies it is clear that mans motive is not to seek truth, or that man is uneducated and gullible. Its not the course of wisdom.

I will still post pictures for you as soon as I get the chance. I did make it back to Montana however there was still several feet of snow on the range I want to use. We got over 5' on the level in town this year. Almost broke records but was just shy.

Some fellas from Best of the West are going to be coming up later this year to shoot with some of us. When I post pics maybe I'll post my picture with some of them fellas in it. Or maybe I won't either.



Trystan

I've gone to the Redding body die, lee collet die, & Forster seater too. I have Forster benchrest full length sizers too but they don't give the straightness of the body/collet die setup.

I'd say your problem is mostly in your sizing, necks running out at .002" will result in more runout at the ogive because it's further out on the lever arm. I'd go back to the regular full length die, I suspect you'll get better numbers than that.

Mackay,

If you wish to be schooled pay attention. A picture on the internet is worth a thousand lies. If I was truly a dishonest liar I'd post up some 100 yd target pics and claim they were all shot at 500. Nobody would know the difference. Its called deductive reasoning. There's a reason why I offered a real life demonstration. I proposed to offer tangible evidence that can be believed without any doubt yet everyone declined that offer. Yet everyone begs for pictures on the internet worth a thousand lies. When a man ask for a picture worth a thousand lies it is clear that mans motive is not to seek truth, or that man is uneducated and gullible. Its not the course of wisdom.

I will still post pictures for you as soon as I get the chance. I did make it back to Montana however there was still several feet of snow on the range I want to use. We got over 5' on the level in town this year. Almost broke records but was just shy.

Some fellas from Best of the West are going to be coming up later this year to shoot with some of us. When I post pics maybe I'll post my picture with some of them fellas in it. Or maybe I won't either.



Trystan

A YouTube video it is then. I will post results in the near future. I will use 4 different rifles all in one session. I will conduct the test only once and if its a bad day so be it. I will simply title the thread "A day shooting at 500 yds" not intended as a pissing match or proving point. I will use a 223 tikka, a 270 tikka, a 6.5X55 tikka, and a Sako Finnbear. All 4 rifles completely factory with nothing more than trigger adjustment.

Popular request was for a YouTube video...I think I'd be a smuck if I didn't oblige.


Trystan

Most directions for run-out gauges suggest around .1 inch in front of the case mouth, but that can vary some depending on the ogive.

Trystan: You're right about still photos being worthless.

Isn't that why you said you'd do a youtube video?




So, do you still think you'd be a schmuck if you don't oblige?