Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Australia Breaker Morant

You are half right. The Kelly's did seal their fate at Stringybark creek. The issue is what lead to that? A drunk officer attended the Kelly homestead with a telegram of a Warrant for Dan. That much is agreed on. What is n It agreed on is what followed. Some say Fitzpatrick pulled Ned's sister onto his lap, and Mrs Kelly hit him with a fire iron. Other claim Mrs Kelly told Dan that Fitzpatrick only had a telegram of a warrant, not a warrant and that he didn't gave to go. Hearing this Fitzpatrick pulled his revolver out, and a scuffle broke out. Mrs Kelly hit him with a fire iron, Dan disarmed him and sent him away.

Fitzpatrick now makes a claim that Ned, Dan Mrs Kelly and 2 others were all in the house and that he was assaulted and that Ned fired at him hitting Fitzpatrick in the wrist. This incident is the reason warrants for attempted murder were issued for Dan and Ned.

There are many issues with what Fitzpatrick claimed happened. Firstly, the 2 others who Fitzpatrick claimed to be in the single room hut, Williamson and Skillion couldn't gave been there. Skillion never left the Winton pub, and Williamson was past by Fitzpatrick on the way to the Kelly homestead splitting wood, yet he ran 500 yards unseen and went around the back of the hut removed a slab of bark and got in before Fitzpatrick's horse could trot there. Secondly, Fitzpatrick claims to have been shot, yet the surgeon found no bullet in the wound, and there was no exit.

Kelly was supposed to have fired 3 times at Fitzpatrick and missed twice from about 4 feet. At stringybark creek Kelly was in a tree to tree exchange with Kennedy, and was able to hit him multiple times on the run at 20 and 30 yards. So how did he miss at point blank range?

Its also worth noting that the Kelly's were in the forest panning Gold to pay for a defence lawyer for their mother. The police went to find them, not the other way around.

And as for being a cold blooded killer, why did the only officer to surrender not killed, when Kelly knew he would be giving evidence against him?

Ok so a more or less proud come obstinate Irish catholic career thief family which was fathered by an Irish x-convict,
the sons of which (with a few friends) finally decided to take on the system of corrupt police, land owners and government.

Dishonest unlawful folk taking exception to how other dishonest unlawful folk treat them.

btw: Some reports say Ned copped 19 bullet wounds at Glenrowan, then another says 28 bullet wounds,
what is a person to believe about personal allegations levelled toward the Kellys or police, if people cant
even get that correct.

Neds Jerildrie letter apart from trying to justify his life of crime, makes out he shot the police during the Stringybark Creek
incident , in self-defence...??...but it was Ned who initiated an attack on a police bush camp with guns drawn not the other
way around. If anything the police fired in self -defence response to the raid...but Ned took exception to it and killed them.

As far as McIntyre not being killed along with the other three, I don't know why that is.
Was he possibly not found to be firing at the Kellys?..I read where McIntyre surrendered to the Kelly raid ,while Lonigan fired
his weapon and was killed as result.

McIntyre transcripts:

http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?a=internetBridgingPage&Media_ID=15107

Yeah but you didn't address why the police were in yhe forest looking for them.

1- plain clothes police existed in those days, at the later Glenrowan siege, there were numerous
plain clothes police involved. It would make sound sense not to be spotted in the bush with police
uniforms when searching for the Kellys or other outlaws/bushrangers.

There are supposedly some p/c police among those standing on Glenrowan train Station here:



This one supposedly shows men from the Benalla contingent, including constable Braken(second left)
and possibly more unidentified p/c police.



Typical p/c police bush patrol with black trackers that would search for outlaws:




2- police had two groups in an attempt to capture both Kellys in a supposed pincer movement tactic.

3- because leathers might be needed to secure outlaws bodies that might well prefer to die rather than be captured.
Im confident they brought irons as well?..or did they not?...The leathers would have also been used by police to
secure any dead police as well ,yes/no? ...Kellys could have potentially killed a number of the 8 police and then got
killed themselves....how many cords did it take to properly secure one body?..and How many leather cords did the
police have with them?..If police had more leather, more ammunition, more guns and more men than needed, is that
really such a strange thing for police on a manhunt to do?,.. or such a big deal?

4- police rashness-incompetence maybe...what advantage is there in purposely not taking warrants
with them, if they in fact have valid warrants?

The police were not simply out of uniform, they were posing as miner. They also carried pretty well as many guns as they could, one patrol even took a shotgun off another group en route. The police were also heard to say they were going to take the flashness out of them. Remember, there were only 2 people as far as the police new.

Still nobody wants to acknowledge that the Kelly's and the police would never have been there 8f Fitzpatrick hadnt lied, and if the evidence pointing to his lies was listened to.

Was it considered unlawful for police to be undercover appearing as miners?
re: police with plenty of guns,
how many guns did the 8 police have? Say an average of three guns each wouldnt
sound too much including pistols , with some shotguns thrown in.

Im thinking I would want more than just one long arm and pistol to rely on,
Id want at least another pistol and/or maybe a scatter gun.

I can't remember what they had. The gro Ip from Mansfield had a pack horse carrying the guns. Remember it was 4 on to 2 as far as the police knew, and the Kelly's only had a revolver and a shotgun. 2 of the gang were not even armed when they first encounted the police.

I don't know if it was illegal for police to be out of uniform, though it was unusual.

I know it's hard to accept now, but I firmly believe the police went to find and kill the Kelly's.

There hasn't been a Royal commision into any other gangs before or since. Also where else did the police, their actions and behaviour result in so many demotions and evictions from the force? If the Kelly's were so bad why did the police agree never to visit the homestead again without a priest? And if they were such police haters why did at least 1 Kelly become a police officer?

Sigh. Yes I know. Everyone in New Zealand knows about this in greater detail than you, its taught in school you great pompous twit.

LOL Mention that you dont like Ned Kelly and listen to them. Dry your eyes petal. You're still white.

So to recap, Breaker Morant was English, Ned Kelly was Irish, please tell me at least that the jolly swagman was a bloody Australian.

Back in the 1970's in the US Army we would watch Breaker Morant as part of Geneva Convention classes! "Sergeant Major!"......"Sir"...... and Code 303 or regulation 303

WTF?
First you say that everything I typed about NZ was false and just made up, now you say all NZ'ders are taugh such in schools.

BTW: the question still stands- what source did you use to make the claim Morant is Aus most lengendary character?

1- Four on Two , The Kelly's had lots of friends and supporters, that was known. Police could not know
if the 2 Kellys would be alone if/when they found them... nothing odd about having more police on ones
team if you are not sure what you will encounter in the remote bush.

2- Police in plain clothes while engaged in searching for outlaws was not that uncommon, such approach
was used by police in the east coast colonies of QLD, NSW, VIC. Here again are more images of p/c police
charged with hunting bushrangers:




btw: The Kelly's at some point in their career of crime on occasion wore police uniforms, Correct?

3- It may well have been the full intent of (some or all) police to kill the 2 Kellys or just a willingness to kill them
if given the slightest reason, but that remains speculative...BUT fact remains the Kellys intently ambushed the
police and killed them.

4-Like the Kellys, It seems Police made serious mistakes and were punished through demotions /ejections
(or the Gov used them as political scapegoats following the Royal Commission findings)..??

5- Neds half -brother John Kelly, probably wanted a more normal straight life. Before joining the WA police,
he worked doing different things, tram motorman , horseman/breaker, was then recruited by a circus for
those skills, this took him around Aus , Sth Africa and Asia. ..John and wife then settled in WA, where he applied
to the WA police mounted section as a horse breaker/riding instructor and he became probationary constable.
..this only lasted 1906-1908 because he rejoined a circus.
He was honored by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and travelled south through the Americas with Barnum
and Bailey's Circus. WW1 broke out and Jack later enlisted in the Australian army, serving in a number of battles
on the Western Front and reached rank of sergeant.
1920s he returned to Argentina and became a highly paid instructor at the famous El Caballo Blanco riding school.
There is no evidence he ever returned to Australia. ... John Kelly died in Buenos Aires March 1956.

https://www.police.wa.gov.au/About-...ed-Kelly-in-the-Western-Australia-Police

Cleary John Kelly knew how to stay out of trouble and lead a fruitful long life. Were not better oportunities in life
also open to Ned and Dan Kelly and Steve Hart and Joe Byrne?

The Kelly's did wear police uniforms at Jerilderie and townsfolk were moved to comment on both the exceptional young men who had replaced the old police, and that the town had never been so quiet😊

What evidence do you gave to support that the police knew that there were 4 and not just the 2 brothers? I maintain they didn't and were gunning for the Kelly's. Seeing as the only one to surrender was unhurt, do you honestly think that that the police would have extended that courtesy to the Kelly's?

You clearly have read up on, tell me do you think it right the sentences handed down to Williamson, Skillion and Mrs Kelly? 11 tears and 7 years hard labour on the word of a drunken copper, and 3 for Mrs Kelly.

The royal commision didnt make scape goats out of anybody. You had the police surounding the Kelly's on the flooded Murray with wet powder and lame horses and they wouldn't advance. Others wouldn't set out before a full cooked breakfast, and was asleep when the Kelly's crossed the bridge at Beechworth where they were vulnerable. Then there were the 4 police who hid under the bed when Aaron sherrit was shot, and the heroic actions of shooting people fleeing the Inn after Ned agreed to let them go. At least 2 were killed by police. Then Fitzpatrick who apparently was overly fond of drink and other mens wives, he started it all, so why not run him out of the force? If he had not gone to the Kelly's as instructed NONE of this would have happened.

1- Police legally going plain -clothes makes you irate, Kellys illegally wearing police uniforms doesn't.
John Kelly being the good police trooper he was, would have likely arrested his own brothers for that.

2- I haven't said the police knew for certain that there were 4. I said its reasonable for police to think that
the 2 popular well liked Kellys may have gained support from others (that may have joined them in the bush )
before police found the two.

3- Huh? Police extend courtesy to the Kellys after they had raided a police camp and shot dead 3 out of 4 police?
what , because they let one live?..I don't think so.

4- As I indicated before, those colonial times( laws, judicial system, fairness, justice, social orders, prejudices)
were certainly different from today, as result life was much harsher than today, especially so for a career criminal family
making themselves 'popular' with police.

Again re: Ned Kelly, Dan Kelly, Steve Hart, Joe Byrne, ...why didn't any or all of them take the better smarter
path in life, like John Kelly wisely did?

Kelly supporters appear to make poor excuses for the poor choices those men made.




Well I wonder, if the evidence you claim you have of that, was stacked up and run through the current high court judicial system,
would it be enough for the courts bench of judges to reasonable decide that police were out to unconditionally kill the two Kellys?

- Police having a stack of(unknown number) of firearms and good supply(unknown number) of leather tethers for
any dead bodies in the event of a shoot-out, just sounds like part of normal preparation for hunting down bands of outlaws.
- Police planning to outnumber the crack shot gifted horsemen outlaws they are chasing sounds more like a smart idea
in the course of their duty, rather than an indication of intent to murder.
- Police in plain clothes and posing as miners sounds like shrewd tactics rather than an indication of intent to murder.
- Police not taking with them the warrants they had, seems pointless and not like an indication of intent to murder.

Thats does not mean there was no intent to murder(in the first degree)the 2 Kellys..but the Westminster criminal justice system
requires one to prove beyond reasonable doubt (i.e.; that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that
the defendant committed the crime) that the accused had such wilful intent or that his actions were based on such.

1) I am not irate, I just think its funny that a band of outlaws were better police than the police themselves. I am not still not 100 percent sure the police were legally out of uniform

2) There were only 2 warrants issued, anybody else is irrelevant. Would this many police armed like that have gone to the homestead to arrest then? Nope.

3) You misunderstand me. I asked if the police had found the Kelly's first and they surrendered, would they have lived? I personally don't think so.

Its funny you mention the Westminster system, where was it when Fitzpatrick lied, when 3 people were jailed, when a judge decided that Ned was guilty and declared he'd give him 20 years? Where was the Westminster system when supposed Kelly supporters had land taken off them?

I am not a rabid Kelly supporter, and I know they were horse thieves, but the police weren't angels in this.

1- Kellys were better police by unlawfully wearing stolen police uniforms ?..how so?...you mean they didn't harass the other
like criminal civilian elements like police did.

" not 100 percent sure the police were legally out of uniform."...Well unless you know for legal fact that those police
being plain clothed was unlawful, then what relevance does it have?...sounds like clutching at straws.

2- two warrants yes, and you can't just say everybody else then becomes irrelevant. When police were looking for bushranger
Harry Powers, Ned Kelly himself then became relevant by association & collaboration with Powers... So warrants for two Kellys
could potentially end up involving any people that then team up with them in the Wombat ranges...you think police would just
ignore any such people because the warrants didn't cover them?...ever heard of , aid and abet and criminal collaboration?

3- Again, I find it merely speculative that the police would have murdered the 2 Kelllys had they found the Kellys first.
again, does 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' ring a bell..?...To me what you have represented as evidence of such,
does not show beyond reasonable doubt...A logically counter-argument can be presented to cast reasonable doubt of
the allegation of premed. murder.

4- Im am analysing and discussing Neds guilt or innocence and police guilt or innocence on the current efficiency model
of the westminster criminal justice system, hence why I mentioned the concept of running your evidence throughout todays
High Court Bench and asked how you think your murder claim may fair through such...dont you think that would be a better
21st century way of assessing Kelly and police ultimate guilt or innocence?...Lawyers have run a modern day law model on
Breaker Morant I believe.

5- You have just reverse what I said much earlier, that the police were corrupt and Kellys no angels themselves...anyway to
be more correct, the Kellys were horse thieves ,bank thieves, stole police uniforms, impersonated police- and were murderers.


And for the 3rd time re: Ned Kelly, Dan Kelly, Steve Hart, Joe Byrne, ...why didn't any or all of them take the better smarter
path in life, like brother John Kelly wisely did?
Ned & Dan Kelly preferred a life of crime that was in regular conflict with corrupt police, but Kelly supporters just like to complain
about what they deem an unfair outcome, despite the fact the Kelly brothers heavily contributed to their own troublesome fate.

1) Normal people who would comment on how fine the new police looked, and made comment that the town was more peaceful hardly seem like criminals that bare the brunt of police attention.

2) Of course there is aid and abet, but the police had no idea there was 4. As for the warrants, how on Earth could they be an oversight? They couldn't arrest them without them, so why not take them unless you didn't plan on using them. Also what about Lonigan killing a Tiger snake on the way out and exclaiming "first blood to us", and the open talk about taking the flashness out of the Kelly's?

4) There has been discussion on the Kelly ttisl and it's fairness. Here is a link http://www.ironoutlaw.com/writings/sixty-minutes-kelly-on-trial/

It's bad when a Victorian chief justice thinks the trial was hopelessly unfair.

5) You are keen to point out the crimes of the Kelly's but not of the police? Why?

I can't answer why Ned, Dan, Steve and Joe didn't live straight lives. I can say that the scheme the Kelly's had going on was lucrative and worked well. I honestly think that if Fitzpatrick hadn't gone to the homestead and then lied about an attempted murder, Mrs Kelly would have gone on selling sly grog, and the others would have been horse thieves and long ago forgotten.

1- What new police?...they were not new or legitimate police , Kellys were illegally wearing and impersonating police -end of story.

2- Police no idea of 4, ...as already stated, its reasonable for police to suspect and plan for such contingency that the Kellys in the
Wombat Ranges, may have teamed up/banded with unknown number of collaborators since it was known they had many friends and
supporters in the region. - Kelly in the past had teamed with bushranger Harry Powers,..Hence 8 police with many guns, a lot of leather
body tethers, etc, seems rationally and reasonably justifiable, and not unquestionable proof that they planned to murder 2 Kellys.

3- I already asked before, so again, What possible advantages would there be, for police to intentionally not bring their warrants with them?
How does it benefit the police exactly ?

4- Wrong!... Ive said numerous times the police were corrupt and also mercenary in nature - and part of the problem.

5- So you won't speculate on Ned, Dan, Steve and Joe choosing a life of crime rather than going 'straight' like John Kelly , but you keep
speculating that police planned to murder 2 Kellys, despite having nothing concrete or definitive to support 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

6 - The Kellys in question were 'lucrative' career criminals, the fact it worked well for them, does not exhonerate their life of belligerent crime.

7- You are speculating when it suites you...but you won't venture into speculation of where Kelly gang members lives would have pathed,
had they much earlier exercised good sense like John Kelly...Reality is they chose a life of crime leading to Stringybark Creek, Siege at
Glenrowan where they held people captive at gunpoint and the inevitable hanging of Ned Kelly for murder.

-- For some reason you pick a point in time like the 2 warrants/Stringybark Creek lead-Up and consequent fallout, to speculate on
unsubstantiated police intentions to murder 2 Kellys. ..and you keep drumming that up...yet you won't entertain any speculation of the
life Choices the Kelly gang members made prior to that, which if better ones were made, had the potential to steer them away from the
fate they suffered, and subsequently less contention and conflict with police along the way...John Kelly prime example.

Since you have repeatedly claimed that police were only ever looking for or expecting two fugitives,
then why would they need the bootmaker to supply a 'heap' of leather straps to tie down bodies?

A demand for such a large quantity by police, would suggest that the police were potentially expecting
to face more than just the 2 Kellys in the course of their duty to secure them.




Kelly spared McIntyre, so Ok, when Kelly was finally captured at Glenrowan, didnt police then extend that courtesy to him?

Seeing that they didn't just pull his helmet off and put a bullet in his skull , then fair to say they did extend the courtesy.