Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Bullet run-out help

Where would "get rid of the Barska scope and quit putting the barrel directly on the hard front rest" fit in the golf world? How to break 180?

Points well taken, I am certainly satisfied with the results and don't believe I'll be chasing it any further for the time being. The rounds shot quite well with no "flyers" so I'm happy. This is a Rem 700 mountain in 7-08, certainly no bench gun, but shoots great for what it is.

There has been a fair amount of testing on rum out one military test with match 30-06 springfields showed run out less than .005 did not affect accuracy and then at some point .008 or more the chambering of the round would straighten it some so the accuracy was a sort of bell curve.

I just use good dies, collet and comp seater, no expander set up well and don't usually even check run out unless accuracy is off. I usually just roll the rounds on a piece of glass and any that wobble significantly go in the plinking and practice box.

If run out is under about .005 I don't shoot well enough from improvised rests to see any difference.

If you want the best ammo you can get (without turning necks) the above method is what works best for me.

Plus keeping your necks annealed & seating the bullet in 3 short strokes rather than one single stroke.

Never don't work.

MM

Montana Man,

I use the same three dies also. 😀 Apparantly more than 1 person has figured out this combo. IMO it doesn't get any better or easier when loading for a shelf rifle.😎


Trystan

Never found the need to rotate bullets in the Forster BR seating die.

Rotating helped in a few RCBS "regular" seating dies I have. I only rotate once at 90 degrees after the bullet is seated maybe 1/8", or so.

Haven't read this thread, only skimmed it, but here's how to get rid of runout.

1 - Redding bushing sizer and Comp seater

2 - Bushing size determined per Redding's instructions

The easiest way to determine the proper diameter bushing is to measure the neck diameter of several loaded or dummy cartridges with an accurate micrometer. (These dummy cartridges can be loaded with your old set of dies or a borrowed set.) Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet.

3 - Cull any brass with a neck wall variance greater than .001". Nip this in the bud by going with Lapua brass. Lapua makes 7-08 brass. If Lapua doesn't make the brass, look for another cartridge. LOL


Three easy steps and your runout is gone and you don't have to hold your mouth a certain way and stand on one foot. LOL

I used to use the Redding bushing sizers more, but I've converted over to Lee collet dies for most uses.

For $120 less I can do exactly the same thing with a Lee neck sizer and a Forster benchrest seater, plus avoid case lube. 😀

I agree on the brass. Why chase run out with schit brass. I buy Lapua or Norma



Trystan

Along with cheaper, it's sometimes quicker and easier to get low runout with the Lee collet die instead of the Redding bushing die.

Consider the 308 Winchester with a SAAMI chamber. The minimum diameter for the chamber neck is .343", and you know how many chambers are cut minimum in factory rifles? Yeah, right.

So we fire a round assembled in Winchester brass in our factory chamber. A quick check shows the fired neck has an OD of .344". Winchester 308 brass is pretty thin, and we know our loaded rounds had .332" OD necks. So we want their sized OD to be .330" for a .002" interference fit when the bullets are seated. That is, we need to reduce the diameter of those necks by fourteen thousandths.

I tell you from direct experience we're not going to run those .344" necks through a .330" bushing and not induce a bunch of runout. So we'll need to bushing size in steps. Each step requires another bushing, and they don't exactly give away the preferred TiN coated ones. On top of this every sizing step can induce its own runout, though decidedly less than trying to do the sizing in one pass.

In contrast, the whole sizing operation can be accomplished easy peasy with one set up in a twenty dollar Lee collet die. And they come out straight too.

I've even found the collet die to be the better solution for Lapua brass which needs to be sized .336" for eight thousandths reduction from fired.

Now if we're shooting our Lapua brass 308 rounds in a custom .340" neck chamber with the fired cases coming out .338" or .339" after springback, then a bushing die may great. But the Lee collet will still work too.

Mathman,

I agree, not to mention if you don't neck turn your brass the Redding bushing die will induce run out because it sizes from the outside of the neck where differences in neck thickness will push the hole off center.

The lee collet neck die squeezes the neck down to a mandrel that is perfectly centered so the hole, bullet, is perfectly centered reducing run out regardless of neckwall thickness variations. Factory chambers have enouph clearance that neck turning really doesn't give you any return as far as accuracy. However, starting the bullet straight which the lee neck die does do will net results. The Redding die is capable of equaling the lee die but you have to neck turn to do it. In a factory chamber where it won't show up on paper why make it so hard when it can be so easy. 😀



Trystan

Trystan, with Lapua brass and Redding bushing die, most of my loads have bullet runount less than .001 without turning necks. As to Mathman's point, all of my stuff is snug necks with minimum down sizing required.

ctsmith, Lapua brass is some good stuff and I've had the same results as you.
I haven't had the best of luck with some of the other brands. From some of the OP comments I was thinking he wasn't interested in dropping whatever brass he was useing. My comment was geared toward the advantage of useing the lee die in this type of situation though I didn't convey the message very well. Over the years I have a pretty good stash of brass that isn't Lapua or Norma and its one reason I also went to useing the lee neck die.☺



Trystan

My Norma experience in regards to neck wall variance has been hit or miss. Norma 300 WM is good, Norma 280 Rem has been bad. Same with Nosler, some good, some bad. Never had any bad Lapua.

To the OP, and it may have been mentioned already, grab a neck wall variance jig and toss anything over .001.

Unfortunately I've been able to find a bad batch from most manufacturers. I haven't had any bad neck Norma, but I haven't used that much Norma either. I did get a dud batch of Lapua 308's. That one pissed me off since the Lapua I was using had been so consistent I quit measuring. As a result I loaded a large batch of bananas that didn't shoot so well.

Some of the best necks I've ever measured were RP 243 cases from green box factory ammo a friend bought years ago. Other lots may stink. I used to use a bunch of RP in 308 until I got a batch where most had necks .003" thicker on one side and Remington told me that was within tolerance.

If you strictly hold this tolerance the per piece price of garden variety brass may approach Lapua/Norma level because of the reject rate. That's what I found with the QC slide in mass market brass that seemed to start in 2008. I wonder what happened about then?

Yes sir, I agree.

Originally Posted By Trystan

"Ive shot so many sub 2" 500 yd groups with a stock tikka I've lost count. Mount a scope and go hunt."





Trystan,

I (and I am sure many others) are still waiting for you to school us on how to consistently shoot sub 2" groups at 500 yards, with a fixed 6x scope.


I think you mentioned "Next week" a couple weeks ago?




I am ready to be schooled.

Mackay,

If you wish to be schooled pay attention. A picture on the internet is worth a thousand lies. If I was truly a dishonest liar I'd post up some 100 yd target pics and claim they were all shot at 500. Nobody would know the difference. Its called deductive reasoning. There's a reason why I offered a real life demonstration. I proposed to offer tangible evidence that can be believed without any doubt yet everyone declined that offer. Yet everyone begs for pictures on the internet worth a thousand lies. When a man ask for a picture worth a thousand lies it is clear that mans motive is not to seek truth, or that man is uneducated and gullible. Its not the course of wisdom.

I will still post pictures for you as soon as I get the chance. I did make it back to Montana however there was still several feet of snow on the range I want to use. We got over 5' on the level in town this year. Almost broke records but was just shy.

Some fellas from Best of the West are going to be coming up later this year to shoot with some of us. When I post pics maybe I'll post my picture with some of them fellas in it. Or maybe I won't either.



Trystan

The larger the case capacity the smaller the affect of accuracy from the amount of powder variatio

I sure wouldn't worry about a few rounds coming out over .003. I would either buy or make a Tru Tool ( They ain't that hard to make). Fix the problem rounds and go shoot. A person can waste a lot of time and spend money tryingto figure out and fix a problem that doesn't matter.

I think along time ago,Mathman posted that those rounds that had run out and were fixed did not shoot quite as good as rounds that that had no appreciable run out to begin with.

I am not a bench rest shooter and he is by far probably a better shooter than I, but I have no seen any difference.

I usually load a 100 rounds at a time.I may get 8-10 that surpass .003 run out. I fix those with my home made tool, mark them and usually use them as fouling shots when I go check my scope zero before hunting season.Since I only use 3-4 rounds to check zero and 1-3 rounds hunting out of that 100 I loaded,I run out of those fouling rounds long before I run out of the others.