I can't imagine getting drawn for AZ and taking a chance with a 308 on their huge bulls. I'm sure I'll get flamed, but those tags don't grow on trees. I'd have been better prepared for the worst case scenario.
Just another opinion.
You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
I own and shoot 308 Winchesters, 30-06s and 300 magnums. All are fine on elk. I know form personal experience.
The idea that the extra speed is super important is not factual. In a few cases it's slightly helpful, but only slightly.
I have been shooting for over 50 years now, and when I was a US Marine it's safe to say I was somewhat of a "specialist" in long shots with a 308. I have enough experience to say without doubt that the velocity difference between my 300 magnum and my 308 is not important enough to make real differences on elk.
It gets a bit more noticeable on antelope and even more noticeable on targets the size of coyotes. That is because of the smaller kill area (target)
As soon as you start to need hold overs and hold offs you the shooter need to HOLD! It's about you, not the cartridge.
Sure, my 300 is a bit easier to make hits with on smaller targets at a bit more range, but not near the advantage most shooters seem to think.
For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".
But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.
If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more. #1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load. #2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)
This advice comes from someone that has shot out the rifling out of several barrels in several rifles and in 4 different handguns. I am pretty good at making long shots. And I don't. I see no need for it.
Not that I think 400 is "long" but without trying to brag, I can assure you that when you measure your shooting not in hundreds of rounds fired, but in many barrels shot out, you learn something about shooting.
When I was a young man I shot for a living and I qualified out to 1000 yards for Uncle Sam. (with a 308 I might add) But deer and elk are not enemies and I respect them enough to not fire when I think I can hit the kill zone. I only fire when I know I can hit the kill zone. I get closer. Do I have to? No! I stand a good chance of making clean kills at longer ranges, but why would I want to? I am a good enough hunter that I find very very very few times I can shoot 700+ that I can't easily get 200 to 300 closer.
Now this good man who made the vid is commendable in my eyes because he told the whole truth. He made no excuses and didn't blame circumstances. I like that! He's human. He made a mistake and learned from it. So did I. That's why I am writing this. Good for him and all those like him.
A 300-super-duper-stupendous-ultra-uber-mag would not have made any real difference in 99% of the cases. Why? Because such guns have very short barrel lives and the shooter is going to learn more from shooting 7,000 round in practice than he is from shooting 700 and needing a new barrel. Re-barrel jobs cost a lot more then practice ammo and reloading components.
IF you are wealthy enough to shoot those throats out and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel you will become an excellent shooter. But not near as fast as you would if you were using a 308 or 30-06. And I can tell you without ANY hesitation the 308 and 30-06 as well as many other cartridges are just fine for killing elk. Not from reading about it, but from doing it for all my life.
I am not saying that are not some very good shots out there who do their shooting with super magnums. There are!
But there are a LOT more out there with 270s 308s and 30-06s because the money was spent on practice ammo instead of new guns, new glass, new barrels and so on.
New and "Improved" is usually only new.
And that newness is usually just a re-shaped brass 'powder bottle' that approximates something we have had for 30 years and sometimes up to 100 years.
In shooting, paper of meat, the equation ALWAYS boils down to being 98% the shooter and 2% what he shoots.
Nothing says you can't have both a super magnum and a 30-06, 308 or the like. And there is zero need to hold over with the advent of turrets and ballistic reticles.
It was one to learn by and I appreciate that he posted it.
Quote
Semantics. (You are picking on my choice of words to detract from the original argument because your point isn't accurate).
assumption
--- No-- thats a fact. Just like the fact that your .300wm would've missed had you held the same aimpoint as Randy in those conditions.
Randy is an upstanding sportsman and I would expect nothing less than he show the full result of his hunts, good, bad or otherwise.
The point to learn by is this:
Make sure you account for all non-standard conditions when you take a shot at that distance. IE- Hold for wind or dial for wind if it is going to affect your shot.
The lesson is not "a .308 won't kill an elk and a .300wm will not be affect AT ALL by wind at 400yds".
Was a .308 the best tool in his toolbox for that shot on that size animal.... maybe not. But you heard him say in the video he shoots tons in practice. Had he connected in the vitals I'm sure the .308 would've done the job.
Cool video, glad he missed the bull clean. But he missed! At 300 yards give me a break , he freaking missed! Even he didn't blame the cartridge, he blamed himself for not aiming correctly. As well he should.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
I own and shoot 308 Winchesters, 30-06s and 300 magnums. All are fine on elk. I know form personal experience.
The idea that the extra speed is super important is not factual. In a few cases it's slightly helpful, but only slightly.
I have been shooting for over 50 years now, and when I was a US Marine it's safe to say I was somewhat of a "specialist" in long shots with a 308. I have enough experience to say without doubt that the velocity difference between my 300 magnum and my 308 is not important enough to make real differences on elk.
It gets a bit more noticeable on antelope and even more noticeable on targets the size of coyotes. That is because of the smaller kill area (target)
As soon as you start to need hold overs and hold offs you the shooter need to HOLD! It's about you, not the cartridge.
Sure, my 300 is a bit easier to make hits with on smaller targets at a bit more range, but not near the advantage most shooters seem to think.
For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".
But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.
If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more. #1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load. #2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)
This advice comes from someone that has shot out the rifling out of several barrels in several rifles and in 4 different handguns. I am pretty good at making long shots. And I don't. I see no need for it.
Not that I think 400 is "long" but without trying to brag, I can assure you that when you measure your shooting not in hundreds of rounds fired, but in many barrels shot out, you learn something about shooting.
When I was a young man I shot for a living and I qualified out to 1000 yards for Uncle Sam. (with a 308 I might add) But deer and elk are not enemies and I respect them enough to not fire when I think I can hit the kill zone. I only fire when I know I can hit the kill zone. I get closer. Do I have to? No! I stand a good chance of making clean kills at longer ranges, but why would I want to? I am a good enough hunter that I find very very very few times I can shoot 700+ that I can't easily get 200 to 300 closer.
Now this good man who made the vid is commendable in my eyes because he told the whole truth. He made no excuses and didn't blame circumstances. I like that! He's human. He made a mistake and learned from it. So did I. That's why I am writing this. Good for him and all those like him.
A 300-super-duper-stupendous-ultra-uber-mag would not have made any real difference in 99% of the cases. Why? Because such guns have very short barrel lives and the shooter is going to learn more from shooting 7,000 round in practice than he is from shooting 700 and needing a new barrel. Re-barrel jobs cost a lot more then practice ammo and reloading components.
IF you are wealthy enough to shoot those throats out and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel you will become an excellent shooter. But not near as fast as you would if you were using a 308 or 30-06. And I can tell you without ANY hesitation the 308 and 30-06 as well as many other cartridges are just fine for killing elk. Not from reading about it, but from doing it for all my life.
I am not saying that are not some very good shots out there who do their shooting with super magnums. There are!
But there are a LOT more out there with 270s 308s and 30-06s because the money was spent on practice ammo instead of new guns, new glass, new barrels and so on.
New and "Improved" is usually only new.
And that newness is usually just a re-shaped brass 'powder bottle' that approximates something we have had for 30 years and sometimes up to 100 years.
In shooting, paper of meat, the equation ALWAYS boils down to being 98% the shooter and 2% what he shoots.
Your experience mirrors mine and I agree with all you wrote. Well said (written).
_________________________________________________________________________ βMontana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.β John Steinbeck
