Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting In The Game of Inches ...bigger cartridges matter.....

No not at all, but what you'll find, is that those of his level of shooting will know when not to attempt it. I'm not his level of shooting even though I've had the pleasure (luck?) of beating him here and there.

But thats the point of being practiced and learned. You learn when you can read it. There are LOTS of things you can read. Lots that have not shot competitively don't realize that, at least for me, I don't rely on range flags on the range for much. I read a lot of other things to come up with my shot to shot correction. When you realize that there are indicators all over, it helps.

And beyond all the very most important part that learned shooters know, is when they look at something and think, well I can get close with the first round but I just don't get totally what I'm looking at and choose to walk away, thats the most important part.

Really, 300 yards with a 308 and a decent wind bucking bullet, is rarely going to create an issue, especially on an elk size target, where I'd think I can't hit or scare the heck out of something like a clay pigeon or so. Cantaloupe size easily. I'd have more of a time trying to get a solid position/rest in bad winds than worrying if I"m not guessing em right.

But I would have to be in practice. I am not and have not for a number of years lately.

The one thing I take away from the comments, and I did not watch the vids because my computer won't access them all of a sudden lately, probably needs an update again, is that 300 yards is a distance that you RARELY don't need some kind of correction.... shooting zero wind at 300 would scare me 99 percent of the time.

I'll grant you my longest game shot to date, I ran almost no wind, but all the indicators where there all the way to the target including basically a boil all the way there, which made me think it would be a gravy shot really. But there was just a tiny hint of direction at times in the mirage, almost not readable but ghostingly there. So I favored it just a hair into that and it worked out for both rounds on target almost exactly on aiming point, I'm talking within 3-5 inches of aiming point basically.

Knowing when not to is more important than when to IMHO. Of course that comes from years and many many many thousands of rounds downrange... to get to the point that out to about 800 or so it was fairly rare for me to look at anything on any range and think, WTF? I'm not at all sure.

OR you take a sighter off the side....

After re watching it, I don't think it was a 20 mph wind.....

I agree Judman, looked pretty still.

Since I was the only one there, and filming myself, I guess I'm the only one who knows what actually happened and what the situation and conditions were.

Like I said in the video, I eff'd it up. Some folks might want to blame a scope, a rifle, the ammo, or some other distraction. That would be BS.

That set-up kills a lot of stuff. I shoot it a lot. Ammo is free for me, so I spare no expense with practice. This year in CO, that same set-up killed a really nice bull 342 yards across a canyon, at about the same shot angle, though from higher above. The bull went a few steps and slid down the canyon until getting hung up in oak brush.

I've killed a lot of elk with a .308 Win at that distance. It has nothing to do with the cartridge, the ammo, the rifle, or the scope. That rifle is dead nuts accurate when the nut behind the trigger does his job. In this case, that nut didn't do his job. It is not the fault of the .308 Win.

I have a three .300 Win Mags, a .300 WSM, and five .308s. I like them all. The most accurate of them all are the .308s. I can't say why, but that is just how it is. I've killed lots of elk with a .300 Win Mag, also. At that shot angle, a .300 Win Mag is going to drift almost the same, and such that it would have also been a miss, or possibly grazed the body.

For a little background, we had passed that bull the evening before. My son is a very good shot, but at 420, even with a prone rest, he and I agreed it was best too wait for a better set up, given the bull seem very relaxed and no other hunters were crawling into these canyons. He was carrying a .300 Win Mag.

We saw the bull again the following morning and tried to locate him in the P-J canyons. He milled around a bit, but was now about 500 yards. We hoped to wait him out and he would come down below us. No luck, he actually climbed out of the canyon, further away, and out of sight into the next canyon.

That afternoon we split up, with me going the direction least likely to be where I expected the bull to be, with Matthew and the camera guy going to the head of the drainage that would give them better view into the P-J down below.

Before splitting up, the camera guy gave me the extra video camera and an adapter to fit my tripod. His last words were, "If I hear a shot, you better get it on film."

I found the bull feeding broadside, about 50 yards left from where he was in this video. I was on a north canyon face among a burned patch of oak brush when he stepped out from behind a P-J while feeding.

I stopped and hoped he did not hear me. I glassed and saw it was the bull we had been chasing. About 40 yards below him was his buddy and he was on full alert, looking up my direction.

As quietly as I could, I took off my pack, withdrew the camera and tripod and tried to get it set-up. If not for the filming requirement, I would have leaned on a tree, probably not have been distracted by filming, and I suspect the broadside shot would have been lethal. But, that is not a luxury I am afforded when we have $20K wrapped up in production costs of each episode.

I finally got the camera set up, but it kept focusing on the burned trees and even when zoomed, burned limbs were obscuring the image. I had to move slightly to find a small opening that would allow for an unobscured image. The bull below was listening and trying to sort out what I was, eventually walking low and right of the screen.

I hit the record button and started to set up on the rifle, finding it difficult to find any shooting lanes unless I stoop upright, a shot I would not take at that distance. My only hope was to climb up about twenty feet and get above most the burned limbs.

In the time it took to do that, the bull turned and walked to my right and stopped where I ended up shooting.

That put him out of camera frame, so I had to go down to the camera and readjust the frame to the new location where the bull was now standing. He was now looking at his buddy, knowing something was wrong.

I quickly hopped up to my shooting position, not wanting him to move out of frame again. Once the crosshairs were steady, I shot. I was sure I hit him. But, he sure didn't act hit. So, I shot again, which if you look closely, a Pinion limb is clipped. He took off.

When I got there, all I found was some small pieces of long hair from his mane, which I think was the first shot. I followed for a long ways, but to no avail.

The bull was tucked into a small notch on the opposite canyon face, to my north. I was on the south side of this small canyon. There was a very stout wind blowing down the canyon, as is often the case at last light in the west.

Folks are welcome to judge, second guess, or make their own determinations of what would have killed the bull, what the wind speed was, etc.

I suspect if it had been a normal team of me and a camera guy and me not filming myself, the odds of me forgetting to hold for a crosswind would have been much less. And I am 100% sure that a .300 Win Mag would have not killed that bull when the operator made the mistake I did.

Every bull I have hit with a .308 Win has died. I had one bull I grazed with a .300 Win Mag that live to see many more days.

Plain and simple, I messed up. No good excuse. I could be like most other outdoor platforms who don't show, tell, write about, their misses. But, I have no interest in some sort of facade that doesn't show what happened.

With the decision to show it how it happened, miss or hit, comes the critique from others who weren't there, who don't know the conditions, the distractions, or the ample/rare shooting positions available, and who are going to second guess it. That's fine. Comes with the territory.

I think I drew that same tag again this year. I will know when they update the draw results this coming week. If so, I can assure you I will be holding for crosswinds this time and I am bringing two camera guys so if we split up both hunters will have a camera guy to worry about getting it on film.

Thanks for watching.

Good luck. Well said, and best wishes. John

I don't think you had to explain yourself. Anyone who's hunted long enough knows shiite happens. That's the good thing about you and your show - you show it like it is. I love when people start the Monday AM quarterbacking. As if this is your first elk hunt.......

Thanks again for showing and telling it like it is.

Randy, by providing that much clarity, and "ownership" of the mistake, you may push this thread into the "under" category. (see my over/under forecast of 7 pages, above).

on a side note, your hunting videos are my absolute favorite. I love the format, and the level of insight you offer in each. that is especially true in a video like this. when you show how easy it is to miss, even when all other things have gone your way (drawing the tag, getting in place, etc) you do elk hunting right. it aint easy. attaboy.

Two years ago opening day in NE Oregon. "I have been laying behind this log for a couple of hours, watching the hillside across from me waiting for the small herd i saw the morning before. Wind is from my left to right fairly stiff. Pine needles are lofting up and across on my side of the canyon. I was cold sitting there in the dark but now I am in full sun, the other side in the shade. My senses are telling me to hold full into the wind, as I had failed to do the previous year, but I cannot see any evidence of wind on the other side. Distance varies from 290 to 330 or so. At around 10 am, I am thinking that I missed them and they went elsewhere when a cow steps out into a patch of wind thrown timber on the other side. Game on, after a few min I locate one of the bulls feeding in an opening the size of a couple of pickups, and get relaxed to take the shot. I held 1/2 the wind value, as the bull takes a couple of steps to my right stops and I squeeze. I saw him one other time, got a snap shot then all is quiet. Another bull walks out near the cows and they all stand around feeding. I mark and remark the spot where I last saw him and headed down across the canyon, while the other elk continued to feed. He was upside down about 25 yards downhill from where I last saw him The 160 AB out of my 7 mm Mag hit exactly where expected" Not always the case but on that day I did it just right.

Agreed, always entertaining listening to the "experts".

Yup, clean miss.

Probably the best part of all these pages. No offense to Randy.He knows what happened.


For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".

But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.

If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more.
#1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load.
#2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)

The elephant in the room that I just realized was there in this case. He wanted to film the shot without a camera man. I wouldn't have a clue on how to pull that off. My guess is I would have shot my foot, or worse yet my mule.

Randy- thanks for jumping on here. I think, as you can see, the large majority of the guys here realize and agree with exactly what you said.

And, as often the case, the simplest explanation is the correct one. And that explanation was the wind.

Very few would argue that a well placed .308 isn't going to do the trick and even fewer would try to argue that a .300wm or some other cartridge would have made up the difference for that mistake. (Ballistics tables prove that out.)

Appreciate you, your show, and all your efforts for conservation and thanks for being the type of person that we want representing us on TV and in person.

Funny chit. By this time next year Randy will have killed around 3 more elk with that 308, and most of you will still be planning out your perfect scenarios.

Ain't that the truth. Quarterbacking from the cheap seats is always easy.

Keep rocking Randy. Crap happens....

Can't wait to see the 2017 AZ archery video. Hope that hunt was a fun one for you....

He'll be even bigger this year when you kill him.






P

Seeing you talk down to this particular hunter is about the funniest thing I've read on here in a while.

Thanks for the laughs.

This thread reminds me of the famous quote by Aldo Leopold:

"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct."

We've all made mistakes. Like someone else said (and like I heard from the old-timers when I was coming up) "if you haven't screwed up a shot you haven't hunted very much."

So here we have a guy with the balls to show one of his mistakes on film, and rather than appreciate that for what it is and acknowledge that none of the rest of us will ever do that, everybody wants to be in the gallery, put their own spin on what happened, and give "advice."

Gallery is right, as in "peanut."