I can't imagine getting drawn for AZ and taking a chance with a 308 on their huge bulls. I'm sure I'll get flamed, but those tags don't grow on trees. I'd have been better prepared for the worst case scenario.
Just another opinion.
You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
I own and shoot 308 Winchesters, 30-06s and 300 magnums. All are fine on elk. I know form personal experience.
The idea that the extra speed is super important is not factual. In a few cases it's slightly helpful, but only slightly.
I have been shooting for over 50 years now, and when I was a US Marine it's safe to say I was somewhat of a "specialist" in long shots with a 308. I have enough experience to say without doubt that the velocity difference between my 300 magnum and my 308 is not important enough to make real differences on elk.
It gets a bit more noticeable on antelope and even more noticeable on targets the size of coyotes. That is because of the smaller kill area (target)
As soon as you start to need hold overs and hold offs you the shooter need to HOLD! It's about you, not the cartridge.
Sure, my 300 is a bit easier to make hits with on smaller targets at a bit more range, but not near the advantage most shooters seem to think.
For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".
But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.
If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more. #1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load. #2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)
This advice comes from someone that has shot out the rifling out of several barrels in several rifles and in 4 different handguns. I am pretty good at making long shots. And I don't. I see no need for it.
Not that I think 400 is "long" but without trying to brag, I can assure you that when you measure your shooting not in hundreds of rounds fired, but in many barrels shot out, you learn something about shooting.
When I was a young man I shot for a living and I qualified out to 1000 yards for Uncle Sam. (with a 308 I might add) But deer and elk are not enemies and I respect them enough to not fire when I think I can hit the kill zone. I only fire when I know I can hit the kill zone. I get closer. Do I have to? No! I stand a good chance of making clean kills at longer ranges, but why would I want to? I am a good enough hunter that I find very very very few times I can shoot 700+ that I can't easily get 200 to 300 closer.
Now this good man who made the vid is commendable in my eyes because he told the whole truth. He made no excuses and didn't blame circumstances. I like that! He's human. He made a mistake and learned from it. So did I. That's why I am writing this. Good for him and all those like him.
A 300-super-duper-stupendous-ultra-uber-mag would not have made any real difference in 99% of the cases. Why? Because such guns have very short barrel lives and the shooter is going to learn more from shooting 7,000 round in practice than he is from shooting 700 and needing a new barrel. Re-barrel jobs cost a lot more then practice ammo and reloading components.
IF you are wealthy enough to shoot those throats out and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel you will become an excellent shooter. But not near as fast as you would if you were using a 308 or 30-06. And I can tell you without ANY hesitation the 308 and 30-06 as well as many other cartridges are just fine for killing elk. Not from reading about it, but from doing it for all my life.
I am not saying that are not some very good shots out there who do their shooting with super magnums. There are!
But there are a LOT more out there with 270s 308s and 30-06s because the money was spent on practice ammo instead of new guns, new glass, new barrels and so on.
New and "Improved" is usually only new.
And that newness is usually just a re-shaped brass 'powder bottle' that approximates something we have had for 30 years and sometimes up to 100 years.
In shooting, paper of meat, the equation ALWAYS boils down to being 98% the shooter and 2% what he shoots.
Nothing says you can't have both a super magnum and a 30-06, 308 or the like. And there is zero need to hold over with the advent of turrets and ballistic reticles.
It was one to learn by and I appreciate that he posted it.
Quote
Semantics. (You are picking on my choice of words to detract from the original argument because your point isn't accurate).
assumption
--- No-- thats a fact. Just like the fact that your .300wm would've missed had you held the same aimpoint as Randy in those conditions.
Randy is an upstanding sportsman and I would expect nothing less than he show the full result of his hunts, good, bad or otherwise.
The point to learn by is this:
Make sure you account for all non-standard conditions when you take a shot at that distance. IE- Hold for wind or dial for wind if it is going to affect your shot.
The lesson is not "a .308 won't kill an elk and a .300wm will not be affect AT ALL by wind at 400yds".
Was a .308 the best tool in his toolbox for that shot on that size animal.... maybe not. But you heard him say in the video he shoots tons in practice. Had he connected in the vitals I'm sure the .308 would've done the job.
Cool video, glad he missed the bull clean. But he missed! At 300 yards give me a break , he freaking missed! Even he didn't blame the cartridge, he blamed himself for not aiming correctly. As well he should.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
I own and shoot 308 Winchesters, 30-06s and 300 magnums. All are fine on elk. I know form personal experience.
The idea that the extra speed is super important is not factual. In a few cases it's slightly helpful, but only slightly.
I have been shooting for over 50 years now, and when I was a US Marine it's safe to say I was somewhat of a "specialist" in long shots with a 308. I have enough experience to say without doubt that the velocity difference between my 300 magnum and my 308 is not important enough to make real differences on elk.
It gets a bit more noticeable on antelope and even more noticeable on targets the size of coyotes. That is because of the smaller kill area (target)
As soon as you start to need hold overs and hold offs you the shooter need to HOLD! It's about you, not the cartridge.
Sure, my 300 is a bit easier to make hits with on smaller targets at a bit more range, but not near the advantage most shooters seem to think.
For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".
But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.
If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more. #1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load. #2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)
This advice comes from someone that has shot out the rifling out of several barrels in several rifles and in 4 different handguns. I am pretty good at making long shots. And I don't. I see no need for it.
Not that I think 400 is "long" but without trying to brag, I can assure you that when you measure your shooting not in hundreds of rounds fired, but in many barrels shot out, you learn something about shooting.
When I was a young man I shot for a living and I qualified out to 1000 yards for Uncle Sam. (with a 308 I might add) But deer and elk are not enemies and I respect them enough to not fire when I think I can hit the kill zone. I only fire when I know I can hit the kill zone. I get closer. Do I have to? No! I stand a good chance of making clean kills at longer ranges, but why would I want to? I am a good enough hunter that I find very very very few times I can shoot 700+ that I can't easily get 200 to 300 closer.
Now this good man who made the vid is commendable in my eyes because he told the whole truth. He made no excuses and didn't blame circumstances. I like that! He's human. He made a mistake and learned from it. So did I. That's why I am writing this. Good for him and all those like him.
A 300-super-duper-stupendous-ultra-uber-mag would not have made any real difference in 99% of the cases. Why? Because such guns have very short barrel lives and the shooter is going to learn more from shooting 7,000 round in practice than he is from shooting 700 and needing a new barrel. Re-barrel jobs cost a lot more then practice ammo and reloading components.
IF you are wealthy enough to shoot those throats out and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel you will become an excellent shooter. But not near as fast as you would if you were using a 308 or 30-06. And I can tell you without ANY hesitation the 308 and 30-06 as well as many other cartridges are just fine for killing elk. Not from reading about it, but from doing it for all my life.
I am not saying that are not some very good shots out there who do their shooting with super magnums. There are!
But there are a LOT more out there with 270s 308s and 30-06s because the money was spent on practice ammo instead of new guns, new glass, new barrels and so on.
New and "Improved" is usually only new.
And that newness is usually just a re-shaped brass 'powder bottle' that approximates something we have had for 30 years and sometimes up to 100 years.
In shooting, paper of meat, the equation ALWAYS boils down to being 98% the shooter and 2% what he shoots.
Your experience mirrors mine and I agree with all you wrote. Well said (written).
_________________________________________________________________________ “Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
whats the over/under on page count? I give it 7 pages by end of the month. and a revival in 2022.
any takers? it has all the right ingredients.
First teach a child to love God, second teach him to love family, third teach him to fish and hunt and by the time he is in his teens no dope dealer under the sun can teach him anything. Cotton Cordell
Things can and do go wrong, but to think that a .300 Win Mag and some garden variety 200 grain bullet would have killed that bull with the same hold is laughable at best. 20 MPH crosswind at 300 yards will absolutely blow any .308 bullet several inches off course, even the mighty 212 ELD.
I been thinking about this today at work. Game of inches..........HELLO it is an ELK! Perhaps the big lesson here is when he chose to engage the target. The kill zone was very compressed. IF and I mean IF ( those are the two biggest letters in the English language when used alone ) he had waited for the target to expand as in the bull becoming more broadside the game of inches would have doubled if not tripled. Anyways hind sight is always 20 20. Very fun to watch...glad no one got hurt or wounded, and I sure didn't see the star of the movie bust his rifle over his knee like Bo Jackson did his baseball bat or wrap it around a tree like a golfer might his club. He acted more like a good major league pitcher, " I missed, this is why, I am gonna get over it. Batter up!"
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
I'm in the "20 mph wind - it wasn't the cartridge fault" club. Wind is the reason I don't shoot long range on animals. I know all kinds of gadgets exist to read the wind but I've yet to see one that tells me how consistent the wind is between the end of my rifle and the target on yonder ridge. Flame suit on.
I'll also give an attaboy to BigFin - he is the real deal and is not afraid of showing thats he's actually a real dude. My favorite TV hunting show.
I own and shoot 308 Winchesters, 30-06s and 300 magnums. All are fine on elk. I know form personal experience.
The idea that the extra speed is super important is not factual. In a few cases it's slightly helpful, but only slightly.
I have been shooting for over 50 years now, and when I was a US Marine it's safe to say I was somewhat of a "specialist" in long shots with a 308. I have enough experience to say without doubt that the velocity difference between my 300 magnum and my 308 is not important enough to make real differences on elk.
It gets a bit more noticeable on antelope and even more noticeable on targets the size of coyotes. That is because of the smaller kill area (target)
As soon as you start to need hold overs and hold offs you the shooter need to HOLD! It's about you, not the cartridge.
Sure, my 300 is a bit easier to make hits with on smaller targets at a bit more range, but not near the advantage most shooters seem to think.
For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".
But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.
If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more. #1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load. #2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)
This advice comes from someone that has shot out the rifling out of several barrels in several rifles and in 4 different handguns. I am pretty good at making long shots. And I don't. I see no need for it.
Not that I think 400 is "long" but without trying to brag, I can assure you that when you measure your shooting not in hundreds of rounds fired, but in many barrels shot out, you learn something about shooting.
When I was a young man I shot for a living and I qualified out to 1000 yards for Uncle Sam. (with a 308 I might add) But deer and elk are not enemies and I respect them enough to not fire when I think I can hit the kill zone. I only fire when I know I can hit the kill zone. I get closer. Do I have to? No! I stand a good chance of making clean kills at longer ranges, but why would I want to? I am a good enough hunter that I find very very very few times I can shoot 700+ that I can't easily get 200 to 300 closer.
Now this good man who made the vid is commendable in my eyes because he told the whole truth. He made no excuses and didn't blame circumstances. I like that! He's human. He made a mistake and learned from it. So did I. That's why I am writing this. Good for him and all those like him.
A 300-super-duper-stupendous-ultra-uber-mag would not have made any real difference in 99% of the cases. Why? Because such guns have very short barrel lives and the shooter is going to learn more from shooting 7,000 round in practice than he is from shooting 700 and needing a new barrel. Re-barrel jobs cost a lot more then practice ammo and reloading components.
IF you are wealthy enough to shoot those throats out and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel and re-barrel you will become an excellent shooter. But not near as fast as you would if you were using a 308 or 30-06. And I can tell you without ANY hesitation the 308 and 30-06 as well as many other cartridges are just fine for killing elk. Not from reading about it, but from doing it for all my life.
I am not saying that are not some very good shots out there who do their shooting with super magnums. There are!
But there are a LOT more out there with 270s 308s and 30-06s because the money was spent on practice ammo instead of new guns, new glass, new barrels and so on.
New and "Improved" is usually only new.
And that newness is usually just a re-shaped brass 'powder bottle' that approximates something we have had for 30 years and sometimes up to 100 years.
In shooting, paper of meat, the equation ALWAYS boils down to being 98% the shooter and 2% what he shoots.
Your experience mirrors mine and I agree with all you wrote. Well said (written).
+2
It's all about the nut behind the butt.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
You don't need gadgets, you need to read all the in between indicators that tell you whats going on.
Granted that took us probably from about 89 to about 01 or so to become top notch at shooting lots of LR and mostly every weekend or so....
Now surely you wouldn't represent that with all of this practice that you, or anyone else for that matter, including Hodnett and/or all of his pupils, Tubb, etc can perform first shot hits every time?
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
You don't need gadgets, you need to read all the in between indicators that tell you whats going on.
Granted that took us probably from about 89 to about 01 or so to become top notch at shooting lots of LR and mostly every weekend or so....
Now surely you wouldn't represent that with all of this practice that you, or anyone else for that matter, including Hodnett and/or all of his pupils, Tubb, etc can perform first shot hits every time?
The shooter is going to learn more from shooting 7,000 round in practice than he is from shooting 700
The reason so many hunters miss in the field shooting magnums is the lack of practice downrange for the sake of ones shoulder.
13 years ago when I graduated from my 300 win mag to a 270 the first thing I noticed was I started shooting "a lot" more. The difference in recoil of a 270 with a 130 vs the 300 win mag with a 180 or 200 is astounding.
Threading needles in a 20 mph wind at 300 with my 300 win mag that I "never" practiced with much....not so much!
Threading needles with the 270 that is on its 3rd barrel? Easy peasy!
This thread is a typical case of believing the equipment gets it done and not practice.
I'd recommend the hunter practice a lot more. If the 308 is uncomfortable to shoot a lot "and they can be" then step "UP" to a 6.5 creedmoor not "DOWN" to a 300 win mag!
Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 03/25/17.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
This thread is a typical case of believing the equipment gets it done and not practice.
I'd recommend the hunter practice a lot more. If the 308 is uncomfortable to shoot a lot "and they can be" then step "UP" to a 6.5 creedmoor not "DOWN" to a 300 win mag!
I'm not sure you watched the video.
Randy is shooting a .308 that he practices with regularly. He even admits that after the shot he realized he failed to account for the wind.
This thread is a typical case of believing the equipment gets it done and not practice.
I'd recommend the hunter practice a lot more. If the 308 is uncomfortable to shoot a lot "and they can be" then step "UP" to a 6.5 creedmoor not "DOWN" to a 300 win mag!
I'm not sure you watched the video.
Randy is shooting a .308 that he practices with regularly. He even admits that after the shot he realized he failed to account for the wind.
The OP could probably use your advice though!!
I watched the entire video. It made for some good early morning entertainment with a cup of coffee 😀
Maybe it was just a case of CRS on the hunters part. That can happen as the years creep up. 😢 Lol
It a mistake I'm sure he won't make again. A hold for the wind at 300 in 20 mph wind is a pretty easy task on an elk sized target. Had Randy remembered to hold there is no way he'd have missed that shot. It looked to me like the bullet clipped the hide by the way the bull moved back.
Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 03/25/17.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
It sure didn't seem like there was a 20mph wind in the video. The tree branches by the bull weren't moving at all. But it could have just been the video.
You don't need gadgets, you need to read all the in between indicators that tell you whats going on.
Granted that took us probably from about 89 to about 01 or so to become top notch at shooting lots of LR and mostly every weekend or so....
Now surely you wouldn't represent that with all of this practice that you, or anyone else for that matter, including Hodnett and/or all of his pupils, Tubb, etc can perform first shot hits every time?
No not at all, but what you'll find, is that those of his level of shooting will know when not to attempt it. I'm not his level of shooting even though I've had the pleasure (luck?) of beating him here and there.
But thats the point of being practiced and learned. You learn when you can read it. There are LOTS of things you can read. Lots that have not shot competitively don't realize that, at least for me, I don't rely on range flags on the range for much. I read a lot of other things to come up with my shot to shot correction. When you realize that there are indicators all over, it helps.
And beyond all the very most important part that learned shooters know, is when they look at something and think, well I can get close with the first round but I just don't get totally what I'm looking at and choose to walk away, thats the most important part.
Really, 300 yards with a 308 and a decent wind bucking bullet, is rarely going to create an issue, especially on an elk size target, where I'd think I can't hit or scare the heck out of something like a clay pigeon or so. Cantaloupe size easily. I'd have more of a time trying to get a solid position/rest in bad winds than worrying if I"m not guessing em right.
But I would have to be in practice. I am not and have not for a number of years lately.
The one thing I take away from the comments, and I did not watch the vids because my computer won't access them all of a sudden lately, probably needs an update again, is that 300 yards is a distance that you RARELY don't need some kind of correction.... shooting zero wind at 300 would scare me 99 percent of the time.
I'll grant you my longest game shot to date, I ran almost no wind, but all the indicators where there all the way to the target including basically a boil all the way there, which made me think it would be a gravy shot really. But there was just a tiny hint of direction at times in the mirage, almost not readable but ghostingly there. So I favored it just a hair into that and it worked out for both rounds on target almost exactly on aiming point, I'm talking within 3-5 inches of aiming point basically.
Knowing when not to is more important than when to IMHO. Of course that comes from years and many many many thousands of rounds downrange... to get to the point that out to about 800 or so it was fairly rare for me to look at anything on any range and think, WTF? I'm not at all sure.
OR you take a sighter off the side....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
After re watching it, I don't think it was a 20 mph wind.....
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Since I was the only one there, and filming myself, I guess I'm the only one who knows what actually happened and what the situation and conditions were.
Like I said in the video, I eff'd it up. Some folks might want to blame a scope, a rifle, the ammo, or some other distraction. That would be BS.
That set-up kills a lot of stuff. I shoot it a lot. Ammo is free for me, so I spare no expense with practice. This year in CO, that same set-up killed a really nice bull 342 yards across a canyon, at about the same shot angle, though from higher above. The bull went a few steps and slid down the canyon until getting hung up in oak brush.
I've killed a lot of elk with a .308 Win at that distance. It has nothing to do with the cartridge, the ammo, the rifle, or the scope. That rifle is dead nuts accurate when the nut behind the trigger does his job. In this case, that nut didn't do his job. It is not the fault of the .308 Win.
I have a three .300 Win Mags, a .300 WSM, and five .308s. I like them all. The most accurate of them all are the .308s. I can't say why, but that is just how it is. I've killed lots of elk with a .300 Win Mag, also. At that shot angle, a .300 Win Mag is going to drift almost the same, and such that it would have also been a miss, or possibly grazed the body.
For a little background, we had passed that bull the evening before. My son is a very good shot, but at 420, even with a prone rest, he and I agreed it was best too wait for a better set up, given the bull seem very relaxed and no other hunters were crawling into these canyons. He was carrying a .300 Win Mag.
We saw the bull again the following morning and tried to locate him in the P-J canyons. He milled around a bit, but was now about 500 yards. We hoped to wait him out and he would come down below us. No luck, he actually climbed out of the canyon, further away, and out of sight into the next canyon.
That afternoon we split up, with me going the direction least likely to be where I expected the bull to be, with Matthew and the camera guy going to the head of the drainage that would give them better view into the P-J down below.
Before splitting up, the camera guy gave me the extra video camera and an adapter to fit my tripod. His last words were, "If I hear a shot, you better get it on film."
I found the bull feeding broadside, about 50 yards left from where he was in this video. I was on a north canyon face among a burned patch of oak brush when he stepped out from behind a P-J while feeding.
I stopped and hoped he did not hear me. I glassed and saw it was the bull we had been chasing. About 40 yards below him was his buddy and he was on full alert, looking up my direction.
As quietly as I could, I took off my pack, withdrew the camera and tripod and tried to get it set-up. If not for the filming requirement, I would have leaned on a tree, probably not have been distracted by filming, and I suspect the broadside shot would have been lethal. But, that is not a luxury I am afforded when we have $20K wrapped up in production costs of each episode.
I finally got the camera set up, but it kept focusing on the burned trees and even when zoomed, burned limbs were obscuring the image. I had to move slightly to find a small opening that would allow for an unobscured image. The bull below was listening and trying to sort out what I was, eventually walking low and right of the screen.
I hit the record button and started to set up on the rifle, finding it difficult to find any shooting lanes unless I stoop upright, a shot I would not take at that distance. My only hope was to climb up about twenty feet and get above most the burned limbs.
In the time it took to do that, the bull turned and walked to my right and stopped where I ended up shooting.
That put him out of camera frame, so I had to go down to the camera and readjust the frame to the new location where the bull was now standing. He was now looking at his buddy, knowing something was wrong.
I quickly hopped up to my shooting position, not wanting him to move out of frame again. Once the crosshairs were steady, I shot. I was sure I hit him. But, he sure didn't act hit. So, I shot again, which if you look closely, a Pinion limb is clipped. He took off.
When I got there, all I found was some small pieces of long hair from his mane, which I think was the first shot. I followed for a long ways, but to no avail.
The bull was tucked into a small notch on the opposite canyon face, to my north. I was on the south side of this small canyon. There was a very stout wind blowing down the canyon, as is often the case at last light in the west.
Folks are welcome to judge, second guess, or make their own determinations of what would have killed the bull, what the wind speed was, etc.
I suspect if it had been a normal team of me and a camera guy and me not filming myself, the odds of me forgetting to hold for a crosswind would have been much less. And I am 100% sure that a .300 Win Mag would have not killed that bull when the operator made the mistake I did.
Every bull I have hit with a .308 Win has died. I had one bull I grazed with a .300 Win Mag that live to see many more days.
Plain and simple, I messed up. No good excuse. I could be like most other outdoor platforms who don't show, tell, write about, their misses. But, I have no interest in some sort of facade that doesn't show what happened.
With the decision to show it how it happened, miss or hit, comes the critique from others who weren't there, who don't know the conditions, the distractions, or the ample/rare shooting positions available, and who are going to second guess it. That's fine. Comes with the territory.
I think I drew that same tag again this year. I will know when they update the draw results this coming week. If so, I can assure you I will be holding for crosswinds this time and I am bringing two camera guys so if we split up both hunters will have a camera guy to worry about getting it on film.
Thanks for watching.
Last edited by BigFin; 03/25/17.
My name is Randy Newberg and I approved this post. What is written is my opinion, and my opinion only.
"Hunt when you can. You're gonna run out of health before you run out of money."
I don't think you had to explain yourself. Anyone who's hunted long enough knows shiite happens. That's the good thing about you and your show - you show it like it is. I love when people start the Monday AM quarterbacking. As if this is your first elk hunt.......
Thanks again for showing and telling it like it is.
Randy, by providing that much clarity, and "ownership" of the mistake, you may push this thread into the "under" category. (see my over/under forecast of 7 pages, above).
on a side note, your hunting videos are my absolute favorite. I love the format, and the level of insight you offer in each. that is especially true in a video like this. when you show how easy it is to miss, even when all other things have gone your way (drawing the tag, getting in place, etc) you do elk hunting right. it aint easy. attaboy.
First teach a child to love God, second teach him to love family, third teach him to fish and hunt and by the time he is in his teens no dope dealer under the sun can teach him anything. Cotton Cordell
Two years ago opening day in NE Oregon. "I have been laying behind this log for a couple of hours, watching the hillside across from me waiting for the small herd i saw the morning before. Wind is from my left to right fairly stiff. Pine needles are lofting up and across on my side of the canyon. I was cold sitting there in the dark but now I am in full sun, the other side in the shade. My senses are telling me to hold full into the wind, as I had failed to do the previous year, but I cannot see any evidence of wind on the other side. Distance varies from 290 to 330 or so. At around 10 am, I am thinking that I missed them and they went elsewhere when a cow steps out into a patch of wind thrown timber on the other side. Game on, after a few min I locate one of the bulls feeding in an opening the size of a couple of pickups, and get relaxed to take the shot. I held 1/2 the wind value, as the bull takes a couple of steps to my right stops and I squeeze. I saw him one other time, got a snap shot then all is quiet. Another bull walks out near the cows and they all stand around feeding. I mark and remark the spot where I last saw him and headed down across the canyon, while the other elk continued to feed. He was upside down about 25 yards downhill from where I last saw him The 160 AB out of my 7 mm Mag hit exactly where expected" Not always the case but on that day I did it just right.
Agreed, always entertaining listening to the "experts".
Originally Posted by bwinters
I don't think you had to explain yourself. Anyone who's hunted long enough knows shiite happens. That's the good thing about you and your show - you show it like it is. I love when people start the Monday AM quarterbacking. As if this is your first elk hunt.......
Thanks again for showing and telling it like it is.
Probably the best part of all these pages. No offense to Randy.He knows what happened.
For example if you have a trajectory that needs a 14" hold over or a 16" hold off, you have to hold it. So if you can hold 14" you can just as easily hold 20" If you can push into the wind 14" you can just as easily push into the wind 19".
But if you need to hold over or hold off and don't know your trajectories or your hold-offs, you should not be shooting. You should get closer so you don't need them. Or you should learn them.
If you have that much trouble that you think you need to buy a faster gun you probably really need two things a lot more. #1 You need to learn you holds for your gun and your load. #2 you need to learn to hunt better (In other words how to get closer)
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
The elephant in the room that I just realized was there in this case. He wanted to film the shot without a camera man. I wouldn't have a clue on how to pull that off. My guess is I would have shot my foot, or worse yet my mule.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
Randy- thanks for jumping on here. I think, as you can see, the large majority of the guys here realize and agree with exactly what you said.
And, as often the case, the simplest explanation is the correct one. And that explanation was the wind.
Very few would argue that a well placed .308 isn't going to do the trick and even fewer would try to argue that a .300wm or some other cartridge would have made up the difference for that mistake. (Ballistics tables prove that out.)
Appreciate you, your show, and all your efforts for conservation and thanks for being the type of person that we want representing us on TV and in person.
Funny chit. By this time next year Randy will have killed around 3 more elk with that 308, and most of you will still be planning out your perfect scenarios.
Funny chit. By this time next year Randy will have killed around 3 more elk with that 308, and most of you will still be planning out your perfect scenarios.
Ain't that the truth. Quarterbacking from the cheap seats is always easy.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
I'd recommend the hunter practice a lot more. If the 308 is uncomfortable to shoot a lot "and they can be" then step "UP" to a 6.5 creedmoor not "DOWN" to a 300 win mag!
Trystan
Seeing you talk down to this particular hunter is about the funniest thing I've read on here in a while.
Funny chit. By this time next year Randy will have killed around 3 more elk with that 308, and most of you will still be planning out your perfect scenarios.
This thread reminds me of the famous quote by Aldo Leopold:
"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct."
We've all made mistakes. Like someone else said (and like I heard from the old-timers when I was coming up) "if you haven't screwed up a shot you haven't hunted very much."
So here we have a guy with the balls to show one of his mistakes on film, and rather than appreciate that for what it is and acknowledge that none of the rest of us will ever do that, everybody wants to be in the gallery, put their own spin on what happened, and give "advice."
I applaud anyone that releases video to the public of a less than optimal shot and gives an explanation of how they think they could have made an optimal shot. As mentioned earlier in the thread the animal headed off for another day so that is the bess less than optimal outcome.
Hunting out West is tough. Staying on your game every minute of every day afield is a challenge. Mistakes are made when you get tired, uncomfortable or distracted.
I can't imagine the extra hurdles for a hunt when include a film crew, permits, logistics and having to get the shot on camera. In this specific case, the autofocus on the video camera created a distraction as did having to relocate the camera. I never have had to deal with video issues though and have still misjudged the wind.
I carry a crib sheet rubber-banded to the stock of my .338WinMag which shows adjustments for various angles of wind, angle of shot, temp change, humidity change and altitude change. Most of my shots during hunts are under 300 yards so the crib sheet is not needed often but when conditions are significantly different than when sighted in the .338 then I am glad I have the sheet. I adjust the turrets and settle in for the shot.
No worry about the camera and no one else moving around or dropping something on a rock or sneezing or whispering back and forth on which animal is the target, etc. Getting a hunt on video is like playing golf from the championship tees. I will be up hitting from the white tees. Plenty of challenge for an old guy. Fore!
A computer once beat me at chess. I then won a kickboxing contest with the same computer. So, 1-1 to date.
A guy who kills quite a few animals misses an elk and people think they should give advice....? An elk was missed- BFD.
Only on the internet is it "rare" to miss while hunting.
A 300 mag at 300 yards doesn't make enough difference to matter unless you are shooting high BC bullets pushed hard.
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Now surely you wouldn't represent that with all of this practice that you, or anyone else for that matter, including Hodnett and/or all of his pupils, Tubb, etc can perform first shot hits every time?
Just a question, because you bring up Todd and David just about every time longer range shooting is discussed- but you understand that in one case you are watching guys shoot and train for WAR and in the other COMPETITION, not BG hunting? They have to shoot in whatever condition is presented. A hunter does not.
When you have competent shooters and let them wait for the shot they want/good conditions, they have a ridiculously high hit rate, even at long range.
Despite popular opinion, the military as a whole sucks at shooting (including "special people"), and there's not much translation between military shooters using 2 MOA 7.62 semi autos with reletively poor bullets, and having to shoot in terrible conditions- to a decently skilled hunter using a 1moa bolt gun with high BC bullets that gets to choose when he shoots.
Just a question, because you bring up Todd and David just about every time longer range shooting is discussed- but you understand that in one case you are watching guys shoot and train for WAR and in the other COMPETITION, not BG hunting? They have to shoot in whatever condition is presented. A hunter does not.
When you have competent shooters and let them wait for the shot they want/good conditions, they have a ridiculously high hit rate, even at long range.
Despite popular opinion, the military as a whole sucks at shooting (including "special people"), and there's not much translation between military shooters using 2 MOA 7.62 semi autos with reletively poor bullets, and having to shoot in terrible conditions- to a decently skilled hunter using a 1moa bolt gun with high BC bullets that gets to choose when he shoots.
I bring up those guys because compared to "expert long range hunters" I'd put money on these guys every time. I also bring up these guys because many here present long range hunting as relatively easy given enough practice. That is ridiculous, and to your statement that these guys suck (I still call BS), well, Hodnett has killed probably more vermin than you and I put together, and Tubb? He has done the same, as he owns property where the wind never quits blowing.
For anyone to represent that with adequate amounts of practice you can make one shot hits, in wind, ever time is once again ridiculous.
I've watched, multiple times, these military guys that "suck", shoot and kill prarie dogs out to 800 meters (not one shot kills necessarily either), and they most definitely do not suck. That includes guys from other countries that you've never seen before I'm sure. I have.
Last edited by JGRaider; 03/29/17.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Those 2 fewer inches of wind drift a 300 mag gets you wouldn't have killed that bull. Quartering away shots are difficult, even on a target as big as an elk. Miss one way you blow up a hind quarter and lose a lot of meat (and possibly lose the animal because elk can run a long way after a Texas Heart Shot) and a miss the other way and you get a clean miss like the hunter in this video got.
Growing up in Wyoming, shooting with wind becomes part of your DNA. The shooter took responsibility for his miss. He took the same shot twice and missed. If you ever get the opportunity for a second shot after a miss and you make the same exact shot, you'll get the exact same results.
Last edited by WyColoCowboy; 03/30/17.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
Despite popular opinion, the military as a whole sucks at shooting (including "special people"), and there's not much translation between military shooters using 2 MOA 7.62 semi autos with reletively poor bullets, and having to shoot in terrible conditions- to a decently skilled hunter using a 1moa bolt gun with high BC bullets that gets to choose when he shoots.
Take it from one who has probably instructed more soldiers and run more qual ranges for more weapons (weapons systems) than anybody else on this board, there is truth in this statement.
_________________________________________________________________________ “Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Love this thread. Guy does more in a week than most will do in a lifetime, self included. All that's missing is [bleep] on the couch, three oh not so great, and the Alaskan Uhmpa Lumpa.....
Despite popular opinion, the military as a whole sucks at shooting (including "special people"), and there's not much translation between military shooters using 2 MOA 7.62 semi autos with reletively poor bullets, and having to shoot in terrible conditions- to a decently skilled hunter using a 1moa bolt gun with high BC bullets that gets to choose when he shoots.
Take it from one who has probably instructed more soldiers and run more qual ranges for more weapons (weapons systems) than anybody else on this board, there is truth in this statement.
Used to be the instructor for my unit for ranges and this is so true. Surprised I don't have nightmares from experiences at the zero range.....
I helped some primary marksmanship instructors out one time with a bunch of 18-20 year old Marine air wingers...holy $hit-I felt safer in Iraq than I did on that range.
I once took a summer job training ROTC officers in Armor ( Tank Gunnery Ft Knox Kentucky ). It was is the 80 s. I bet it would have been safer 2 have anal sex with Freddy Mecury.
Last edited by Angus1895; 04/13/17.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/X0n16mr.png)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.rockymtnrefl.com/TetonFenceBarncd1985987.jpg)