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Originally Posted by fishdog52
rost495, I think you have confused a bunch of things.
Texas ain't New York or Pennsylvania. You might be as happy about that as I am.
Got 2 dairy farms in the family and grew up on one. The male of the species is considered relatively insignificant in a dairy herd. This is also true in whitetails. Big bucks or big bulls are more freaks rather than indicators of the healthy herd you keep mentioning.
Some of simply want to go hunting with a reasonable opportunity to find game. The decision to shoot is mine.
Stopping here.


Well that goes against every cattle rancher and game biologist I"ve ever known.

So a runt bull non tested is as good as any other in the dairy business? I've learned something new today.

RE deer you may be talking huge book deer or such though, that part I agree on, but you can easily see how a management program effects a non managed cattle operation or deer herd.

The question is do we care. And I'm not trying to be better than anyone else, simply I do what I do and if Scott or Tzone or you want to just roll along and have fun thats good by me too. Thats why we pick friends and hunting partners too, so that we are thinking the same way basically. In the end, it sure works out.

Jeff


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Originally Posted by fishdog52
The decision to shoot is mine.
Stopping here.


You just summed up 11 pages without all the BS.

THAT is exactly why I have an issue with APR's.


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No it was his opinion only, which would only be a portion of a thread summation.


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Originally Posted by rost495


The real question should be are folks satisfied with whats what, and is that the majority of folks? If so then I should have to abide by whatever the rules are.


The problem is that it is not by the majority of folks here, if this were put to a vote of the people I would suck it up and move on but its not.

Why is it that as long as a group has the time/money/clout to sway the Natural Resource Commission that I should have to abide by senseless regulation just to feed my family?

Life is not set up that way.....

I have a RIGHT to the air I breathe, the food I eat and the water I drink. Without those three things you will cease to exist. I don't understand why man will stand by and let someone control part of that for larger antlers?

And no, I don't buy into the herd health thing, at least not in our area. I have spent plenty of time in the woods from 1991 to present and can not say I have ever witnessed a health concern, the habitat is self governing, so I don't buy into that either.

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Originally Posted by fishdog52
rost495, The male of the species is considered relatively insignificant in a dairy herd. This is also true in whitetails. Big bucks or big bulls are more freaks rather than indicators of the healthy herd you keep mentioning.
Dominance and breeding success in all Cervid species correlates with antler size and body size. The pushing matches that occur prior to the actual rut are learning exercises for males, in which they learn to recognize other males which are bigger and stronger. This minimizes the amount of energy that dominant bucks have to expend keeping smaller, younger (and presumably inferior) bucks away from receptive does. Thus, trophy deer and elk management is geared toward enabling the bucks and bulls with the largest antlers to do most of the breeding. On deer farms or elk farms, this is done by harvesting (or buying) semen and artificially inseminating estrous does to ensure that only the bucks with the biggest antlers (and most desirable antler conformation) will produce offspring.

Ideally in free-ranging deer (and elk) , smaller males with poor antler conformation, or that are not going to grow large antlers, are culled. On large properties, even with high fences, intensive cropping is necessary to weed out competition for desirable breeding bucks. In low-fence habitat, cooperation between neighboring landowners with sufficiently large combined holdings can be pretty effective.

However, trying to do this across state game management units is pretty much a crapshoot. Quite a few of those dominant bucks will be harvested during open seasons, often before the rut gets underway, leaving much more opportunity for less dominant bucks to breed. The removal of a single dominant male can open up the opportunity for several to many "less desirable" males to breed that year, depending on the sex ratio in that particular population. Culling can make up for some of the loss, but sport hunting under most current regulations is notoriously ineffective.


Last edited by mudhen; 03/23/17.

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Habitat is not self governing and can be modified by outside influences. Deer being one of them.



http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/deer/howisthehabitat/


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Ben, thansk for jumping in. I think it was dumb of you to, but I appreciate it. LOL.

Is not the point of AR to try to govern age class of deer harvested so that things become better?

Or have I missed the point? Such that all does get bred( that was the case here, many does never got bred) and that more deer get closer to mature before harvest?

Not to provide larger racks?

And to follow up, if AR are innefective, they why did they produce an abundance of deer here, deer that are larger, heavier and older and by default some have better antlers?

Whats the point to try to do this across the board if there is no positive to the herd?

Jeff


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Originally Posted by d500lnn
Originally Posted by SKane
Originally Posted by Blackheart
I'd just get sick of dragging those heavy, smelly bastards out of the woods. I've never cared much about antlers. I go hunting to kill something and eat it. I fed most of that big 10 point I killed to the dogs. The meat was tough and I could tell by the smell that it was meat from that buck {I killed a couple other deer that year too} when my wife took a package of it out of the freezer and left it on the counter to thaw.



When I read this kind of thing, I know I'm in the presence of a bullszchitter and/or someone that doesn't know how to take care of the meat.

I've killed and eaten bucks 7+ years of age - both ag fed and big-woods deer and have never had one like you describe. But it makes for a heck of a story.



I've never had a buck that was worse or horrible compared to any other deer regardless of age or gender....all about field care and cooling the carcass properly.....then processing your animal correctly. If you just qtr a deer without removing the glands in certain areas, you're sure to get a schitty taste.
Well good for you. I've killed, processed and eaten over 200 deer in the past 42 years. I'm pretty damned sure I know what I'm doing as well as anybody here. I've only had a couple that were horrible and that big 10 point was one of them. I've killed others nearly as big that weren't as bad but they still weren't as good eating as a younger deer. Same holds true for everything from rabbits and squirrels to pigs and cattle. Younger animals generally make for better table fare.

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Originally Posted by rost495
Ben, thansk for jumping in. I think it was dumb of you to, but I appreciate it. LOL.

Is not the point of AR to try to govern age class of deer harvested so that things become better?

Or have I missed the point? Such that all does get bred( that was the case here, many does never got bred) and that more deer get closer to mature before harvest?

Not to provide larger racks?

And to follow up, if AR are innefective, they why did they produce an abundance of deer here, deer that are larger, heavier and older and by default some have better antlers?

Whats the point to try to do this across the board if there is no positive to the herd?

Jeff
NYDEC has done studies on preganancy/ fawning rates/dates and concluded over 95% of our adult does are getting bred during their first estrous cycle. That was part of the information with which they concluded AR's are not needed to improve the health of our herd.

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I guess one thing that sort of stands out to me with the qdma types is I see all of these comments about shooting all of these cull deer spikes , fork horns, and dozens of does etc over a 3 month long season using extra management permits like it's just a chore they have to do just to manage their herd then they stand around clucking their tongue at somebody that lives in a state with short seasons and is happy to get one or two deer each year big or small. I'd be more impressed if they had to use their one antlered deer tag and one doe tag to improve their herd then leave the field but frankly using feeders to lure deer in, then getting extra management or depredation permits is a bit disgenuine imho.

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I could care less if the deer that I have tags for, 1 or 6, walk out in order and are all what I refer to as needing to go, or does... and I'd be out of tags when the big one walks by.

I shot my last "cull" one morning and 30 minutes later a 24 inch wide 8 point walks by... Oh well. No biggy.

You can cluck all you want about food plots, fertilizing honeysuckle, feeders, protein etc... while it'll bother you it won't bother me a bit.

I do feel for you folks that have short seasons though. Nothing quite like going out every weekend for 2-3 months and enjoying nature. I feel for folks that have the pressure to just kill asap and go back to mundane life.


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Market hunters nearly killed deer out. Since those days, game departments have always told us what to shoot, be it bucks only, five inch spike, etc. Each state can do as they wish, but increasing the number of mature bucks in the woods, increases the quality of the experience.

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Actually you folks in NY should lobby for the legislature to see what Kentucky did. The KDFW program has been a terrific success bringing a pretty weak herd to one of the top herds in the country. It took them 20 years but the herd in Ky is pretty incredible all without silly antler restrictions etc. You get one buck per year and depending on the zone multiple doe opportunities. The only changes I would like to see is the season to last a bit longer say two months and you can use bow, gun ,ml heck I don't care if you use a hammer just as long as once you limit out you go home. I think a longer overlapping season would be better giving more people more opportunity to score even if it meant less multiple tags. To my mind a longer opportunity would tend to make folks more selective and I see too many people killing 5,6,8 deer a year. I'd rather see more people get one or two deer than some guy getting five because he doesn't work and has time to lay out in the woods .

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Originally Posted by a12
Market hunters nearly killed deer out. Since those days, game departments have always told us what to shoot, be it bucks only, five inch spike, etc. Each state can do as they wish, but increasing the number of mature bucks in the woods, increases the quality of the experience.



That last sentence is total BS


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The last sentence is total BS for Scott. Others are YMMV.


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Originally Posted by rost495
The last sentence is total BS for Scott. Others are YMMV.


But you don't realize the difference. I'm not telling you to do it my way, or to shoot dinks, but you are telling me to do it your way.

Liberal thinking to the CORE. I don't give a flying [bleep] what you want to shoot, why do you give a flying [bleep] what I want to shoot with antler restrictions?


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As stated, buck/doe. Those are the 2 choices when it comes to killing deer.

These antler restrictions are the transgender bathrooms of the hunting world.



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Originally Posted by Steelhead
As stated, buck/doe. Those are the 2 choices when it comes to killing deer.

These antler restrictions are the transgender bathrooms of the hunting world.




Then Pa is the Target of the of the hunting world. I love Target.


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Originally Posted by bbassi
Originally Posted by jdunham
NY screws up just about everything it does.


Amen Brother.

My last post here.

NYS 2 years ago tried a program where we could only shoot antlerless deer during the first 2 weeks of the bow season. The stated reason was to increase the doe take and reduce the buck take. The result was most guys just didn't hunt the first 2 weeks of bow. From a management perspective it was a total flop. The state got the message and the regs were changed BACK the following year.

Bottom line for me is this. Spoiled brats with lots more money than sense are pushing this. The paid, professional biologists DO NOT support this as a management tool in all but a small partof NY over run with NYC "hunters". But - it's NY, so money and political corruption usually rules the day. ARs won't effect me much, but I do feel bad for the folks that don't have the time or money to hold out for the "new" legal deer. I hope they don't give up and quit hunting all together.

YMMV
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I live in Steuben County NY, typical season sees about 10,000 whitetails taken in this county alone, about half bucks, half does. Been that way for a long time.
Last season, my buck weighed 182# dressed, a personal best. FWIW, taken on public land.
My 2 grandsons were able to take a pair of bucks and a pair of does.
Does this sound like like a condition that requires improvement?
Been an interesting string.
Steelhead gets the trophy for grasping the core of the AR/QDM big brother movement.

Last edited by fishdog52; 03/25/17.

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It's been 50 since a visitor last paused at your tombstone.....
Now explain why you're in a pissy mood today.
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