Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Consider This About Jesus........

Science has introduced safety switches ,that don't require any self-destruction or ascending up to fuse heaven
or waiting for it to come back and save your life. It just keeps right on working for you after a simple reset.
nor does it conspire with the fuse god to judge you or condemn you to the lake of fire.

I haven't read all of this thread. In fact, very little of it. And, I should know better to get into a debate with those who are smarter than me. But if I did, I would never get to argue! But, AS, I tried to find the definition of a prophecy that you cited and couldn't find it. As far as the prophecy being clear, clear to whom? The Bible tells us that the Word of God is spiritually discerned by those who know the Lord. For example, I had a conversation with a Muslim one time who was being taught that Jesus could not be the Messiah because He told His disciples that His "time had not yet come". To a believer, we know that He was simply telling them that He could not go to Jerusalem as they wanted Him to for His time to die had not yet come.

And none of the definitions I looked at said that a prophecy had to be fulfillable at a single occurrence. Couldn't find that. Not saying that it isn't out there somewhere, just that the first several online definitions I googled didn't say that so I didn't see the use in going on. For many OT prophecies, there was an imminent application and an eschatological application. For instance, in the book of Zephaniah, God lets Judah know that He is going to bring judgment upon them through the new rising power in that day, the Babylonians, because of Judah's idolatry. That was imminent and it happened fairly quickly. Obviously, that happened when they took Judah into captivity.

However, the book's prophecies also point to the end of the age, The Day of the Lord. I realize that there are many different interpretations of the Book of Revelation, but it is my understanding that the 7 years of tribulation is for the nation of Israel to be saved. Not that all will be saved, but many will. So...I don't see where your definition holds up, at least to the definitions I saw (and these were secular dictionaries and not Bible ones).

well reading what Neb did at Gods will, it sounds very much like Neb levelled the city, so much so, that it will be like the 'top of a rock'.(via Nebs actions)
EZEKIEL 26: (AKJV)

7" For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots,
and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots,
when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise:and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses:
and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.




christians contradict scripture much more often than they will admit, or even aware of.

When TF49 stated that his faith in Jesus is motivated and based on Jesus being a means of escaping Gods judgement,
It left me really wondering of his understanding of Christianity, since scripture clearly indicates Jesus himself will be
judging each and every man.

TF49 it would appear , was fundamentally wrong when he indicated God will judge the world with Jesus as the path of escape from Judgement.



JOHN 5:22 AKJV

" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son":

JOHN 5:27 AKJV

" and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

JOHN 9:39 AKJV

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."

ROMANS 2:16 AKJV

" in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

2 Corinthians 5:10 AKJV

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

MATTHEW 25: AKJV

"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Starman,

You posted this:

"When TF49 stated that his faith in Jesus is motivated and based on Jesus being a means of escaping Gods judgement...."

So, tell me how you came to believe that my faith in Jesus is motivated as a means of escaping judgment.

TF

AS,

The last time I discussed Bible prophecy with you concerned the prophecy against Tyre. You claimed it was not fulfilled. When I showed how it was indeed fulfilled you failed to admit that and then you came up with your own contorted view of what the scriptures said.

You simply would not admit you were wrong and then compounded your error with a clearly silly interpretation of the verses. Your pride will not allow you to see the truth.

If you get cornered, you will do the same thing. You will present YOUR OWN view of what the scriptures say and then judge all arguments to the contrary to be false. A recent clear example of this is when you declared Daniel to be written, let's see 160 to 200 or something AD. If you resort to weak arguments like this, you will never see any truth as your bias has blinded you. With a simple sweep of the hand, you declare all the prophecy in Daniel to be false. Kinda like debating a recalcitrant four year old who has no command of the subject being discussed.

Further, you seem to have no knowledge of your own and resort to a quick internet search of atheistic sites. I doubt you have any scholarly base of your own.

However, let's play.
[/quote]
In the prophecy you reference, explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later, Tyre still exists.

This alleged prophecy is just factually wrong. [/quote]


AS,

You are totally incorrect and false in your statement.

This is what you say: "....explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre ...."

You have either never read Ezekiel 26 or you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Perhaps both.

Note that the verses are very clear about what NEB would do and what God or "I" will do. AS has either never read the verse or is just simply parroting something from some website of dubious standing.

You are misinterpreting the text. There are TWO actors moving against Tyre. One is Nebuchadnezzar. The other is God. Neb took his action and then God took his. You are incorrect when you say that Neb was to be the actor to completely destroy Tyre. The verses do not say that. But you take it the way you want and erect a false straw man to knock down.

Tyre was destroyed and you will not admit it.


I will help you out here. Note that the text says God will bring "many nations" against Tyre. Neb was brought against the city and then later "I" brought Alexander to complete the destruction of Tyre.

The prophecy stands. AS fails.[/quote]

TF, that's pretty weak. You would thing the all knowing creator of the Universe could at least give a clear prophecy. In order to be a true prophecy it must be clear, unambiguous, and only fulfillable at a single occurrence.

If I was to predict the U.S would fall, sometime in the future, and at the hand of some other nation, and a thousand years from now the U.S fell to a foreign power, is that really a prophecy? Of course not.

The only attacker Ezekial mentions by name is Nebuchadnezzar. No where in the prophecy does it mention Alexander. Now if it did mention a Macedonia named Alexander 400 years before he was born as the destroyer of Tyre, then you might have something you could claim as prophecy, but for some reason the name Alexander escaped the prophet of the all knowing creator of the Universe.

If this was a real prophecy resulting from foresight, you wouldn't be hanging your argument on weasel words, but the plain meaning of the works on the paper.



[/quote]


Wow, "weasel words" abound in your response. You judge the prophecy to be false because it is not written clear enough for YOU to understand it.

You place your own conditions on the prophecy. Since the verses do not meet YOUR view of what a prophecy should be, you deny it.

The facts remain. Ezekiel made a prophecy regarding the destruction of Tyre. It was destroyed. You do not find it within yourself to accept that so out comes the weasel words and the waffling.

Can't you see that you are the extraneous to the conversation?

Starman and A. S. like to present YOUR thoughts and opinions, then pronounce the winner of the debate.

You will lose.

You are of course correct. I do have difficulty with the "answer a fool according to his folly" and "do not answer a fool."

Now I am concerned about Starman and his understanding of judgment. I wonder if he thinks believers will be at the Great White Throne Judgment. I wonder if he understands the bema judgment.

Ah well....

The question of the "judgements" is one to be argued between Christians, and not in an open forum, as far as I'm concerned.

But......would you live your life differently if you found out you WOULD be judged before the white throne?

Insisting on an inerrant bible leads to lots of unnecessary complications, among them is allowing A.S.a foothold for argument.

Not that it makes any difference since he argues with all believers as if they were Ringman.

Sadly, I don't think he knows there's a difference.

Time for ya'll to shake the dust of your feet and exit AS'ville.

How else would one define it, since the spirit is something unprovable and not observable by scientific means, and is the root word of the above concepts?

Again, not a rhetorical question. How do you define spirit without touching upon the supernatural?

" I should know better to get into a debate with those who are smarter than me."

Knowing a lot of Bible scripture doesn't make anybody smart.

Again, a very legitimate question.

As an example, some forms of Buddhism belief you can reach an "Enlightened State" without the involvement of any super natural elements. They can talk for hours about what they consider their non-religious, non-supernatural, yet transcendent (another slippery word) Spiritualism.

Shinto Spiritualism is grounded in paganism, the worship of natural elements we know to exist. Again there's much variation with it. Some believe their dead ancestors actually live in trees. Other focus more on the relationship between nature and humans. This is actually how Feng Shui started. It was a guide for farms regarding how to plant their crops. Now these principles of water and air flows, and utilization of space has been elevated to a "spiritual practice".

So to answer your question, there's a lot of other ways to look at the concept of Spirituality especially from the non-Christina parts of the world.

[/quote]
Again, a very legitimate question.

As an example, some forms of Buddhism belief you can reach an "Enlightened State" without the involvement of any super natural elements. They can talk for hours about what they consider their non-religious, non-supernatural, yet transcendent (another slippery word) Spiritualism.

Shinto Spiritualism is grounded in paganism, the worship of natural elements we know to exist. Again there's much variation with it. Some believe their dead ancestors actually live in trees. Other focus more on the relationship between nature and humans. This is actually how Feng Shui started. It was a guide for farms regarding how to plant their crops. Now these principles of water and air flows, and utilization of space has been elevated to a "spiritual practice".

So to answer your question, there's a lot of other ways to look at the concept of Spirituality especially from the non-Christina parts of the world.
[/quote]

i thought everybody knew that our ancestors were represented by the cardinals outside our windows sitting on tree limbs.

That's your long winded, egotistical way of saying you've no f'cking clue. Congrats.

Ok,

Let's hear your definition of "spiritual", or "spirituality".

This is a copy of the great post by TF49 responding to ASs assertion Bible prophecy was wrong because King Neb did not destroy Tyre as the Bible predicted.

s his assault on Jesus and His Word. Nothing new here and folks I can tell you that Jesus can deal with it. 

Anyway, as usual, AS is flat out wrong in his comment about the prophecy against Tyre not being fulfilled. If one is interested, it is good entertainment to read of the intellectual contortions the atheists go through to malign this prophecy. One of these jokers stated that since Tyre exists today, the prophecy could not have been true. This zealous dimwit proposes that Ezekiel prophesied against the “geography” and does not see that the prophecy is clearly against the city-state and evil leaders of Tyre. Tyre was ruined because of the evil it perpetrated. 


AS is a blind guide who only leads those that are unknowing and ill informed. He sits in the dark and does not know it. 

So, did Ezekiel prophesy that Tyre the nation state and rulers would be destroyed? Yes and it was so. 

Did he prophesy that many nations would come against Tyre? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that Nebuchanezzar would come and ravage the mainlands? Yes and it was so.

Did he prophesy that it would become “bare rock” and a place to spread fishnets? Yes and it was so. 


Now did the place eventually become inhabited again? Of course, Ezekiel did not prophesy against the real estate, he prophesied against the evil city and it was indeed forever ruined and never to return. Great Tyre is no more, never to be rebuilt. Prophecy fulfilled

It is also very interesting to look at Ezekiel 28. This is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. Ezekiel says: “In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god, I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.” But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.”





Btw,

I note that AS stated : “And when did Nebuchadnezzar destroy Tyre? Oh, that’s right…. That prophecy failed…”



He states this as if it is true and the uniformed may take it that he is correct in this. This is another contortion. Ezekiel says that Neb will ravage the mainlands which were the settlements and city on the coast, not on the island. He did so and history tells us he gained the surrender of the princes and leaders and did in fact plunder. The great “tear down” was under Alexander where he razed the place.


AS and others practice what it called “eisegesis.” He reads something and pours HIS OWN meaning into and then tries to knock it down with some contorted argument. Exactly what he is doing here.







Here is what Ezekiel says:



In the eleventh month of the twelftha year, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, ‘Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,’ therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

As anyone can see below, the writers of the Bible made some amazing guesses concerning the distant future.

http://www.biblelandhistory.com/bible-history/tyre-destruction.html

More disengenuous info by AS below regarding the timeline of Cyrus and the rebuild. He states Ezekiel was not 'put together in its present form' (whatever that means) until 70BC.
.

Ezekiel is commonly ascribed to have been written by ONE man and that was done between 701 and 680 BC
All this below was posted in fall 2016.



AS - Isaiah wasn't brought together in it's current form until around 70BC,

The current Scholarly conscientious is that much of Ezekiel was written during the Babylonia exile, near in time to the events being predicted. Sure a passage making such an extraordinarily accurate claim 240 years before the event would be subject in a high level of scrutiny. After all, the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the standard of evidence.