Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Lapua Naturalis Bullets - Loads and Performance on Game

That's pretty sweet. Looking forward to the results. Now if you can score some ballistic gel. I'd like to see the recovered bullets.

It would be cool to see some more recovered bullets.

Good deal! Looking forward to resumed testing!

Me too

Especially since we can actually get the full line of Lapua bullets here from several manufacturers.

I have started loading new cartridges and will share with you the results soon, hopefully by next week end.. Meanwhile, I dis another experiment that I think is interesting and would like to share the results here: I weighed all my rifles! I have had some of these rifles for many years but I didn't really now how much they weigh. So, a few days ago I ordered a digital scale from Amazon and weigh them:

Mauser (custom), 338 Win Mag ---- 8.7 lb
Heym SR 30, 7mm Rem Mag --------- 9.2 lb
Styer-Mannlicher, 270 Win ------- 9.3 lb
Sauer 80, 7X64 ------------------ 10.0 lb
Sauer 202, 300 Win Mag ---------- 10.3 lb
Mauser (custom), 8X68S ---------- 10.6 lb
Lazzeroni, 8.59 Titan ----------- 10.9 lb
Mauser (Voere), 300 Wby --------- 11.9 lb

I then calculated the recoil energy for the loads that I have been developing using Lapua Naturalis. Here are the results:

Mauser (custom), 338 Win Mag --- 36.6 ft/lb
Heym SR 30, 7mm Rem Mag -------- 19.5 ft/lb
Styer-Mannlicher, 270 Win: ---
Sauer 80, 7X64: ---
Sauer 202, 300 Win Mag --------- 23.5 ft/lb
Mauser (custom), 8X68S --------- 25 ft/lb
Lazzeroni L2000, 8.59 Titan ---- 37.8 ft/lb
Mauser (Voere), 300 Wby -------- 24 ft/lb


These results are consistent with what I have observed at the range. The Mauser in 338 is too light for the 231 grain Natralis bullet and generates fierce recoil. On the other hand the big Voere rifle in 300 Wby is very heavy and shooting 170 grain Naturalis bullets is no problem..


My 338 Magnum rifle:



Left to right: Styer (270 Win), Lazzeroni (8.59 Titan), Custom Mauser in 8X68S and Voere in 300 Wby:

Hello there,

I am "almost ready" for testing a new series of loads in 4 different calibers: 8X68S, 300 Wby, 7X64 and 7mm Rem Mag. I have loaded 12 test cartridges in each of the first three calibers and I will load 12 rounds of 7mm Magnum soon. Below you can see a picture of the long and beautiful 7X64 cartridges. All rounds are loaded using Lapua Naturalis bullets and N560 powder. All rounds use new brass and are intended for hunting so I have made sure that they feed properly.

I have not loaded 300 Win Mag cartridges since I have not quite figured out what I should change to improve accuracy? In my previous tests, velocity was good but I could not get a tight group. Is bullet seating depth a major factor in accuracy? How about using a powder with different burn rate?

Your thoughts and comments are always appreciated.

Presuming a 24 inch barrel and 3.29 COAL on the 7mag, you're tracking what Quickload predicts for a velocity pretty nicely with the N560 load curve, and perhaps more importantly, maxing out at 47k psi.

Hi Erik,

Thank you very much for testing my 7mm Mag loads in QuickLoad! Would you be kind enough to check the loads I have written below in QuickLoad as well?


7X64: 54-57 grains N560, COL = 3.32"
8X68s: 74-77 grains N560, COL = 3.36"
300 Wby: 79-82 grain N560, COL = 3.56"

For 7mm Mag, I have tested up to 62 grains of N560 (COL= 3.24", 25" barrel). The VihtaVuori manual (2017) shows 60.2 grain of N560 as max for this bullet. I didn't notice any pressure signs and the accuracy was excellent. The same manual also shows larges charges (e.g. 68 grain N560 for a 160 grain Speer bullet). What's your suggestion based on your quick-load analysis? Should I go one or two grain higher (upto 64 grain) or stop?

Thank you,
-Omid

PS. I have a feeling that some loads I'd tested previously were near or exceeding maximum pressure. For example, I think the 300 Wby loads with Norma MRP were too hot. Similarly, some 7mm Mags loaded with Norma 217 were probably at or over max too.

Regarding the 7 Rem mag....with the COAL and barrel length adjusted the Quickload predicted pressure and velocity for 62 grains of 560 are 47974 psi and 2884 FPS, 64 is 52817 PSI and 2977 FPS and 66 grains is 58113 PSI and 3071 FPS. 66.5 Grains 59516 PSI and 3094 FPS.. I'll let you decide what you are comfortable with given what the book max is.

Cartridge : 7 x 64 Brenneke
Bullet : .284, 155, Lapua Naturalis N564 7027
Useable Case Capaci: 60.162 grain H2O = 3.906 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.320 inch = 84.33 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 76 43.20 2171 1622 24813 7841 80.7 1.727
-18.0 78 44.28 2224 1703 26279 8142 82.2 1.687
-16.0 80 45.36 2279 1787 27835 8441 83.6 1.647
-14.0 82 46.44 2334 1875 29491 8738 85.0 1.608
-12.0 84 47.52 2389 1965 31251 9030 86.4 1.570
-10.0 86 48.60 2445 2058 33126 9318 87.7 1.533
-08.0 88 49.68 2502 2154 35123 9601 88.9 1.497
-06.0 90 50.76 2558 2252 37251 9876 90.1 1.461
-04.0 91 51.84 2615 2354 39517 10144 91.3 1.426
-02.0 93 52.92 2672 2458 41939 10403 92.4 1.392
+00.0 95 54.00 2730 2565 44524 10652 93.4 1.359
+02.0 97 55.08 2787 2674 47270 10890 94.4 1.326
+04.0 99 56.16 2845 2786 50237 11117 95.3 1.291
+06.0 101 57.24 2903 2901 53395 11330 96.1 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 103 58.32 2961 3018 56787 11529 96.8 1.220 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 105 59.40 3019 3138 60420 11713 97.5 1.186 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 54.00 2898 2890 54066 10908 98.6 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 54.00 2522 2189 36358 9832 84.2 1.471

Cartridge : 8 x 68 S
Bullet : .323, 180, Lapua Naturalis N559 8009
Useable Case Capaci: 74.387 grain H2O = 4.830 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.336 inch = 84.73 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 84 59.20 2371 2247 28297 8220 80.9 1.555
-18.0 87 60.68 2433 2367 30137 8537 82.4 1.516
-16.0 89 62.16 2496 2490 32108 8851 84.0 1.477
-14.0 91 63.64 2560 2618 34222 9160 85.5 1.439
-12.0 93 65.12 2624 2751 36491 9463 86.9 1.402
-10.0 95 66.60 2688 2889 38930 9759 88.3 1.365
-08.0 97 68.08 2754 3031 41553 10046 89.7 1.329
-06.0 99 69.56 2819 3177 44375 10324 90.9 1.294
-04.0 101 71.04 2886 3328 47419 10590 92.1 1.259
-02.0 104 72.52 2952 3484 50701 10843 93.3 1.223
+00.0 106 74.00 3019 3644 54250 11082 94.3 1.185 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 108 75.48 3087 3808 58091 11306 95.3 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 110 76.96 3154 3977 62252 11513 96.2 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 112 78.44 3222 4150 66772 11701 97.0 1.079 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 114 79.92 3290 4327 71692 11870 97.7 1.045 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 116 81.40 3359 4508 77052 12017 98.4 1.013 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 74.00 3202 4097 66142 11242 99.1 1.089 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 74.00 2789 3110 44076 10306 85.4 1.297

Cartridge : .300 Weath. Mag.
Bullet : .308, 170, Lapua Naturalis LR N558 7105
Useable Case Capaci: 88.121 grain H2O = 5.722 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.560 inch = 90.42 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 76 63.20 2467 2298 29177 10075 86.0 1.584
-18.0 78 64.78 2529 2414 31005 10433 87.5 1.547
-16.0 80 66.36 2591 2533 32953 10785 88.8 1.510
-14.0 82 67.94 2653 2657 35030 11129 90.1 1.474
-12.0 84 69.52 2715 2783 37245 11464 91.4 1.438
-10.0 86 71.10 2778 2913 39607 11789 92.5 1.404
-08.0 88 72.68 2841 3047 42117 12102 93.6 1.370
-06.0 89 74.26 2904 3184 44822 12402 94.6 1.336
-04.0 91 75.84 2967 3324 47700 12687 95.6 1.304
-02.0 93 77.42 3031 3467 50775 12956 96.4 1.267
+00.0 95 79.00 3094 3613 54061 13208 97.2 1.231
+02.0 97 80.58 3157 3762 57538 13441 97.9 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 99 82.16 3220 3914 61231 13655 98.5 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 101 83.74 3283 4068 65174 13847 99.0 1.129 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 103 85.32 3346 4225 69386 14017 99.4 1.097 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 105 86.90 3408 4384 73890 14164 99.7 1.066 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 79.00 3258 4007 65115 13121 100.0 1.135 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 79.00 2879 3129 43643 12556 89.9 1.343

Thank you very much for your analysis Erik! Based on your data, the loads I have prepared are in the safe zone with max charges being "near maximum". I am planning to test these at the range this weekend. I will share my findings here.

Happy Friday

It was a rainy day in Los Angeles today and it made it difficult to measure velocity. Rain caused my Chrony device to malfunction but I manages to measure a few velocities before this happened. I will update this post and share the results soon..

Here are my updated velocity results and additional observations:

Caliber 8X68S: I had loaded 12 cartridges (4 sets of three) with 74 grain to 77 grain of N560. In terms of accuracy all four loads were good (less than 1.5 inches) with 75 grain producing best accuracy. These loads produced velocity consistent with my previous test in March. Unfortunately, rain made my chronograph malfunction so I could not record velocities for the 77 grain load. The chart below shows the velocity results.

Caliber 7X64: I could not measure velocity but loads with 55 grain and 56 grain powder (N560) produced touching groups! Fantastic!

Caliber 300 Win Mag: I could only measure velocity for the first two sets of loads (see plot below). The loads very the same charge as my previous test but COAL was increased to near max. The load with 76 grain of N560 produced best accuracy (touching holes) at 100 yards

Here is one of two excellent groups produced by the 7X64 loads in my Sauer 80 rifle. Test loads with 55 grain and 56 grain of N560 powder produced touching groups. This is a good sign of a nice an stable optimal charge. Unfortunately, I could not record velocity.

This is the best group I got in 300 Win Mag caliber. The rifle is a Sauer 202 Take Down model with 25 inch barrel. I had increased my COAL to 3.44" which is nearly touching the lands for this series of loads. When I tried the loads with 73 grain to 75 grain powder, I got two very close shots (nearly touching) and one a bit away. Then at the max load of 76 grain N560 I got this beautiful touching group. I am not sure if the flyer shots are due to flinching or is related to the fact that the bullet is seated with a high (more than standard) COAL. I don't think it would be safe to increase the charge above 76 grain but I would like to try other COAL to see if it has a significant effect. The Vihtavuori reloading manual suggests a COAL of 3.30" with 30 caliber Naturalis bullets which is nearly 0.15" shorter than how I loaded them.

@ Erik: Could you please very my 300 Wing Mag loads with 74 to 76 grain of N560 too? I used COAL of 3.44". Also, I am curious to know how pressure and velocity will change if we seat the bullets deeper at COAL = 3.30? Thank you very much.

-Omid

Cartridge : .300 Win. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 170, Lapua Naturalis LR N558 7105
Useable Case Capaci: 82.794 grain H2O = 5.376 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.440 inch = 87.38 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 74 57.60 2319 2030 25618 8913 82.2 1.665
-18.0 76 59.04 2376 2131 27135 9249 83.6 1.627
-16.0 78 60.48 2434 2236 28751 9583 85.1 1.590
-14.0 79 61.92 2492 2344 30467 9912 86.4 1.554
-12.0 81 63.36 2550 2455 32290 10237 87.8 1.518
-10.0 83 64.80 2609 2570 34229 10556 89.1 1.483
-08.0 85 66.24 2669 2688 36292 10867 90.3 1.449
-06.0 87 67.68 2728 2810 38488 11170 91.4 1.415
-04.0 89 69.12 2788 2934 40828 11464 92.6 1.382
-02.0 90 70.56 2848 3062 43319 11747 93.6 1.350
+00.0 92 72.00 2908 3193 45975 12018 94.6 1.318
+02.0 94 73.44 2969 3327 48809 12275 95.5 1.287
+04.0 96 74.88 3029 3463 51834 12519 96.3 1.251
+06.0 98 76.32 3089 3603 55065 12747 97.0 1.216 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 100 77.76 3150 3745 58518 12959 97.7 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 102 79.20 3210 3890 62199 13153 98.3 1.150 ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 92 72.00 3081 3583 55687 12231 99.2 1.217 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 92 72.00 2693 2737 37406 11165 85.9 1.425

Cartridge : .300 Win. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 170, Lapua Naturalis LR N558 7105
Useable Case Capaci: 80.161 grain H2O = 5.205 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.300 inch = 83.82 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N560

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 76 57.60 2354 2092 26737 8924 82.9 1.637
-18.0 78 59.04 2413 2198 28362 9257 84.4 1.599
-16.0 80 60.48 2472 2307 30096 9586 85.8 1.561
-14.0 82 61.92 2532 2420 31941 9911 87.2 1.524
-12.0 84 63.36 2592 2536 33907 10231 88.5 1.488
-10.0 86 64.80 2653 2656 36003 10543 89.8 1.453
-08.0 88 66.24 2714 2780 38237 10846 91.0 1.418
-06.0 90 67.68 2775 2906 40622 11140 92.2 1.384
-04.0 92 69.12 2836 3037 43166 11424 93.2 1.351
-02.0 93 70.56 2898 3170 45886 11695 94.3 1.318
+00.0 95 72.00 2960 3306 48792 11954 95.2 1.286
+02.0 97 73.44 3021 3446 51901 12197 96.1 1.250
+04.0 99 74.88 3083 3589 55231 12426 96.8 1.213 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 101 76.32 3145 3734 58800 12637 97.5 1.179 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 103 77.76 3207 3883 62630 12830 98.2 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 105 79.20 3269 4034 66730 13005 98.7 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 95 72.00 3132 3702 59206 12091 99.4 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 95 72.00 2742 2839 39632 11166 86.7 1.392

Hi Erik,

Thank you very much for doing the analysis. I included the velocity estimates from your analysis in my experimental velocity plot for 300 Win Mag and the result is the graph below.

Both the analytical results and the measured values show that velocity is reduced when the bullet is seated farther. But it seems that the analytical data overestimate the actual velocities I measured. This could be natural due to natural variations in case capacity, powder and also natural errors in speed measurement

As I mentioned before, I had loaded cartridges upto 76 grain but I couldn't get the velocity of the last rounds due to rain. I am thinking of buying a LabRadar for velocity measurement. I am reading good reviews about it but still a bit skeptical if it can actualy be used in a crowded range shuch as the one we have in Los Angeles. Anybody here in the forum uses LabRadar?

The Labradar has arrived and I am studying its settings and functions. Next time I'll go to the range to test loads, I will take it with me and test it

Before I develop and test a next set of loads, I would like to discuss a few questions with the forum members and hear your thoughts:

a) What is the general rule for using a faster or slowing powder in the same cartridge as the bullet weight changes? My understanding is that a lighter bullet generally needs a faster burning powder whereas a heavier bullet requires a slower burning rate.

b) In reloading manuals the recommended powder charge generally decreases as bullet weight is increased (if same powder used) . Why exactly is that? I presume it is mostly related to the fact that heavy bullets are longer and take more of the case capacity so there is less room for powder. Or is it because a heavy bullet is slower and allows less room for gas expansion after ignition (=higher pressure)?

c) What is the point with the 7MM Rem Mag case capacity while most loads listed for this cartridge fill the case at only 85% to 90% of its case capacity?

d) In the same cartridge (say 30-06), what bullet weight would be most suited for a shorter barrel (say 20")? My "instinct" says a heavy 220 grain bullet would work better in a short barreled rifle but I don't have a rational justification.

e) What is an acceptable powder burn percentage for a rifle cartridge? Should a reloader make sure that say 95% of the powder burns before the bullet leaves the muzzle? Absence of a computer program such as Quickload, how can we know if the powder is fully burned before the bullet exits?


Happy Friday and looking forward to your comments
-Omid

It is interesting to see how case capacity affects pressure and in turn bullet velocity. The plot below shows the velocity measurements for N560 Powder and 170 grain Lapua Naturalis bullets in two different calibers: 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby. It is interesting how 300 Weatherby cartridge needs about 6 grains more powder to produce same velocity as 300 Win Mag.

Hello again everyone,

I got the chance to do some range tests on Saturday. I also tested the LabRadar for the first time. It works pretty well but took some time to learn how to work the menu options.

300 WBY Update: You can see my friend shooting my 300 Wby rifle in the picture below. I had loaded four sets of cartridges from with 79 grain N560 to 82 grain. The velocities very nicely increased from what I had measured before and reached a maximum of about 3100 f/s. I did not get the highly-accurate touching groups that I obtained before with 78 and 79 grain charge though. The groups were like this: two shots nearly touching then one about 1.5 inches away!? What is the most likely cause of this phenomenon? Is it just flinching or I should seat the bullets a bit deeper or what?


300 Win Mag Update: I had loaded 10 cartridges with 76 grain of N560 and a long COAL of 3.44". I had obtained excellent accuracy with this load last time so I just wanted to test. I also wanted to measure the velocity of this load since last time it rained and my chronometer failed. Well, it turns out that this load produces very high velocity in excess of 3100 f/s. The accuracy is OK but not outstanding as the previous test. I think this load perhaps exceeds the maximum safe pressure for 300 Win Mag so I intend to reduce it and test a shorter COAL. I think a max speed of about 2950 to 3000 f/s is more natural for 300 Win Mag and the 170 grain Lapua Naturalis bullet. The average velocity along with Min and Max velocity I obtained for this load are shown in the graph below (pale blue color).

Any thoughts or comments? Thank you and happy 4th of July!