Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What Does a Bigger Cartridge Get You?

JWP: Absolutely,I agree. I was in a bad situation once; even though I knew a 375 was enough gun, it felt pretty small at the time!These rifles shrink when the pucker factor kicks in!

...but would you have hunted those things with a 30-06? Sure, there are things you should hunt with a 338/340/375, but but they're in a different class of cartridges than the 6.5x55 to 30-06. The question is not whether the 340 WM is more powerful than the 6.5x55 - it certainly is - but whether the critters we choose to hunt with the 30-06 show any greater effects with the '06 than the 6.5.

I always believed the bigger hole made a quicker kill, but look at Mule Deer's 24 Jan 07 post on the Scandinavian alg study (the comments are his):



There doesn't appear to be any real difference between the 6.5x55 and the 30-06, which is why I asked the question - what effects make the '06 preferable?

Jaywalker

remember the Scandinavian moose is quite a bit smaller than the Alaskan Yukon Moose. Also Moose are not aggressive after being shot. I am in the minority and believe that the only advantage of a 300 Winn over a 30/06 is a longer effective range and I also believe that if one needs a bigger cartridge than an 06 then a larger caliber is in order. Keep in mind shot placement in these surveys don't seem to be factored in.The larger bores do in my experience give a slight margin of error, (and I do mean SLIGHT) in shot placement.If this advantage is only one percent in margin of error then I will still want that one percent on my side when hunting or protect my self from animals that bite back

that chart is interesting but Ive always wondered about how close the shot placement and range the game was shot at was?
keep in mind that the average guy does NOT tend too hit as well with a heavy recoiling rifle, and tends to think the extra velocity allows shots from greater distances, and while the results stayed amazingly similar ,Ive always wondered at the ranges and shot dispersal differance that led to the results.
IF the ranges and hit placement were similar Id be MORE AMAZED at the results, but Id tend to think both the care in precise shot placement and possiably the range differance tended to vary on average, ( average on both was not identical)

There is absolutely a place and a need for big honking cartridges throwing big honking bullets. That griz in the alders is a perfect example, with similar examples from other continents equally valid.

But the guy who never hunts anything but deer and simply HAS to have a .349 Poundapowder Magnum? Well, that's the magnosterone brag factor, the Tim Allen effect, at work. And there are a LOT of those guys at the range.

If you are talking nothing bigger than Deer then thier is no discusssion..........

Killing an animal and dropping one in its tracks are two differant things. A little story about that: my hunting partner and i were looking accross a small lake at a bull moose, 330yds away, he was standing facing us as he could hear us, partner says wait until he is broad side for the shot, I can kill him with this shot but unlikely he will fall at the shot. So i aimed direstly at the point off his nose directly head on, a 250 Barnes X, out of a 35 whelen, at that range drops about 9 inches at my sight in. The moose folds at the shot. It takes 2hours to get the canoe, send my wife and daughter over to get it so we could pull it across the lake with a rope.This was the only legal moose we saw in a week of hunting. The bullet was found under the skin next to its anus. As usual a well placed heavy bullet works on large game. I would not have made this shot with anything less than the 35.

The moose study is interesting (and gains most of its validity) by the sheer numbers, which tend to even out ranges, bullet placement, etc.

But larger cartridges obviously do have some advantages. Heavier bullets tend to break bones (especially heavier bones) and keep penetrating into the vitals more reliably than smaller bullets, everything else being equal. This is more important on game that may be approaching (charging or otherwise) than anything else.

Also, diameter does have something to do with how hard a bullet hits. Once you get up around .40 caliber this really starts to have a definite effect. Combine that diameter with heavy bullets for penetration, and there is a decided difference.

Exactly where this difference begins, and what uses it has, are always going to be subject to debate. There are also hundreds of examples of angry, wounded large beasts taking a pile of .375, .416, .458 or even larger bullets before keeling over.

We must also keep things in perspective. To the average deer hunter who has used, say, a 7mm-08 most of his life, a .300 magnum may appear huge. But a .300 with 180's only uses a bullet 28% heavier and 8% larger in diameter than the standard 140-grain 7mm-08 load. Yeah, there's a difference in velocity, but only about 200 fps in .300 WSM and .300 Winchester factory loads.

Once we get up to something like a .375 H&H, however, even the 270-grain bullet is almost twice as heavy as the 7mm-08's 140, and it's 32% fatter. Muzzle velocity is almost the same. Yeah, it is going to a hit a lot harder--than either the 7mm-08 or the .300 magnum.

On the other hand, I have shot enough deer-sized game with the 7mm-08 and .375 to know that .375 does not kill deer twice as well as a 7mm-08. It might not even kill an elk twice as well, whatever that means.

Another study, done on the National Bison Range here in Montana in the 1950's, had the same shooter (a very good one) culling elk with the .30-06 and .375. The ammo was 220- and 300-grain Win. Silvertip, respectively. Quite a few elk were killed, with bullet placement noted, the elk weighed, etc. All of this was observed by Dr. Philip Wright of the University of Montana zoology Dept., who write it up in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN. (I know this partly because Phil was one of my professors, and gave me a copy, which hung around for years but eventually was lost.)
He also noted how long the elk stayed on their feet after being hit, how far they went, etc.

I cannot remember exactly the statitsics, but do remember that there wasn't a hell of a lot of difference in time on their feet, and how far they went. The only noticeable difference, Phil concluded, was that the bullets from the .375 went all the way through more often, leaving a blood trail.

Now, this was with Silvertips, which are not anything like the great bullets we have today, and in my experience not nearly as reliable as Hornady Interlocks.

Phil was an avid life-long elk hunter himself, and when I know him used a 7mm Remington Magnum and 175-grain Nosler Partitions or Bitterroot Bonded Cores.

I also cannot help but note that a 220-grain .30 bullet has a sectional density of .331, and a 300-grain .375 of .305. Sectional density does not totally make up for bullet weight, even in bullets of the same basic construction.

JB

Since it takes about 6 seconds for the oxygen in a grizz's brain to BEGIN to deplete, he can run the 40 yards between you and him in 4 seconds and still have a couple of seconds to get even with you even if you blow his heart up. Better have enough gun to break the sholder or you may be in for a long day.

Wayne

Big bears in this question are kind of beside the point, since the question involved elk and kudu in one class of cartridges, the 6.5x55 - 30-06. Still, there are places where grizzlies and elk co-exist, and a bigger bore could be useful there, maybe bigger than the '06. Also, gemsbok have been known to charge, and I do plan to use the '06 there, if and when, so the charging issue isn't completely out of the question.

Okay, I'm answered - the bigger bore tends to be able to break bones better and will tend to leave a larger blood trail. The "bone break" thing is a little bit of a surprise, though, based upon my reading of the dry newspaper penetration test results, but since it was Mule Deer's tests I was reading, I have to assume I misunderstood their results.

Thanks.

Jaywalker

Any media test is only a rough guide to what might happen when a bullet hits something. Dry newspaper is harder on bullets than wet newspaper, or almost any sort of gelatin, wax, etc., but it is not bone. It is also not bone held together by tough tendons, like the big shoulder joint of an elk or Cape buffalo.

One interesting rule of biology is that bone mass increases at twice the rate of animal weight. Thus a 500-pound elk has bones that are not just twice as heavy as those of a 250-pound deer, but 4 times as heavy. Elephants have incredibly heavy leg bones, and they are solid bone, too, not bone surrounding some sort of core, like those in lighter animals. So a bullet's ability to break bone (and keep penetrating in the same direction) gets much tougher an animal size gets larger.

On the other hand, it does not take much bullet to penetrate the shoulder blade of even some pretty big animals, and especially not the rib cage. So the big penetration advantage of really heavy bullets is lost there. A pretty light bullet (say a 120-grain from a .257 Roberts) will typically penetrate all the way through a typical elk's chest on a broadside shot. The bullet may not pop out the other side--and elk's hide is tough and stretchy--but it will get through the vitals.

So the answer is--it depends.

JB

Jaywalker: Yes, I have seen that survey before and I also agree that something over 338 in caliber is starting to get pretty specialized, and only for certain species. Like MD has said, ( I am paraphrasing him here,and maybe taking some license)there is not a universe of difference in lethal effect between a whole slew of cartridges in a general category,say 6.5 through 30/06 (?). I dunno where the line is.

Just a half-assed observation, but I have noticed little difference in the way a 7/08-270-280-7mag kills;270-7 mag are my favorites,mostly because I use them a lot.Next threshhold TO ME, seems to be the 300's with heavy bullets (180-200). I see bigger holes and deep penetration (larger wound channels)on elk-size stuff, and I lump them with 338's,performance-wise. Next up is 375, where everything sorta changes, wound channels get real big (yes,bigger than 338's,IME).They seem to hit very hard.

So, I guess I do not see a big difference on a lot of the things we hunt between comparable cartridges. An 06 makes a bigger hole (I think)than a 6.5 but hit well with either, the game is Kaput,and it will be tough to tell the difference.

It's hard to ignore the similarity of results, both media and animal, between the 6.5x55 and the 30-06 - 5600 alg kills make a pretty convincing argument. OTOH, there could be unexpresseed differences - alg (moose) not being a representative animal, or a higher level of skill in the Scandinavian hunters, or something else.

It's "hard to ignore," but not impossible.

Thanks,
Jaywalker

What does a bigger cartridge get you?

Chics! What did you think!

Best reason to use them!

That's been my experience almost exactly.

To me, it's simply a proportional proposition: The bigger and tougher the animals are that you want to hunt, the more cartridge and the more bullet you need.

I don't insist on making a 270 Win. do the work that is best done by a 338 Win. Mag. I'd rather hunt deer with a 270, and I'd rather hunt elk with a 338, pure and simple.

When in doubt, I take a 300 Win. Mag loaded with premium 180s. It shoots flat enough for any realistic hunting situation, and based on rather extensive personal experience it, that cartridge good for 98% of the world's big game.

So where's the complication, anyway?

AD

It's offseason, with nothing else to do?!?

That's true!

I rather like discussions of this sort. It's all about fun, and I'd like to think we're all friends here, even if it doesn't always sound that way!

AD

The wildebeest that I have shot with 300-grain Swift A-frames fired from a 378 Weatherby at under fifty yards have tended to drop faster than the wildebeest that I have shot with 100-grain Nosler Partitions fired from a 243 Winchester carbine at similar distances.

Sample sizes are small.

Your results may vary.

The kudu I have dreamed about shooting with my pre-64 .30-06 have dropped DRT to my not yet loaded 165 grain TSX, while the yet to be purchased pre-64 300 H&H shooting the 180 grainer drops them 0.28 seconds faster. That's in my dreams, YMMV.