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My favorite modern era study of bullet effects is Mike LaGrange's work when he was shooting control in Zimbabwe for the Parks Department. His subsequent monograph Ballistics in Perspective documents his experience shooting thousands of heads of game (6,000 elephant and uncounted numbers of smaller animals). He also conducted experiemts shooting boards and soap for penetration and wound diameter for softs and solids.

Mike writes (p.20): "Experience over the years has indicated that there is a significant difference between the effect of calibers below .300 to those above. A 7mm caliber weapon (equivalent to .280 of an inch), seems to have considerably less effect than a .308 Win even though it is as powerful in terms of energy produced."

He also says on p.a5: "As a rue of thumb, sectional desnity should never be reduced to improve velocity. Instead use a caliber with a larger capacity case and slow burning powder, as used in the larger magnums."

I like to shoot plains game with the .308 Win because I have also found it to be effective. I have been using 180 gr premium bullets in Africa, and have finally started to use the 150 to 165 gr bullets over here.

Remember it is cross-sectional area of the penetrating bullet, and the volume of the resulting wound channel that counts. Bigger cases can throw bigger bullets. wink

jim

Mike LaGrange, Ballistics in Perspective, 2nd Edition, 1990, ISBN 0-9624807-2-X


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The skill of the Swedish hunters would be uniformly high as they are required to do the running moose target before being allowed to hunt. I can think of three writers who confirmed this, Jeff Cooper, Layne Simpson and some other writer whose name escapes me.

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Originally Posted by HunterJim
My favorite modern era study of bullet effects is Mike LaGrange's work when he was shooting control in Zimbabwe for the Parks Department. His subsequent monograph Ballistics in Perspective documents his experience shooting thousands of heads of game (6,000 elephant and uncounted numbers of smaller animals). He also conducted experiemts shooting boards and soap for penetration and wound diameter for softs and solids.

Mike writes (p.20): "Experience over the years has indicated that there is a significant difference between the effect of calibers below .300 to those above. A 7mm caliber weapon (equivalent to .280 of an inch), seems to have considerably less effect than a .308 Win even though it is as powerful in terms of energy produced."

He also says on p.a5: "As a rue of thumb, sectional desnity should never be reduced to improve velocity. Instead use a caliber with a larger capacity case and slow burning powder, as used in the larger magnums."

I like to shoot plains game with the .308 Win because I have also found it to be effective. I have been using 180 gr premium bullets in Africa, and have finally started to use the 150 to 165 gr bullets over here.

Remember it is cross-sectional area of the penetrating bullet, and the volume of the resulting wound channel that counts. Bigger cases can throw bigger bullets. wink

jim

Mike LaGrange, Ballistics in Perspective, 2nd Edition, 1990, ISBN 0-9624807-2-X


I do tend to agree with his observations as that is what I have observed as well.

Jim, where can I obtain a copy of this book?........ smile



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Thanks.............



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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HJ,

My experience doesn't quite bear out Mike's point on the sub-30, over-30 difference. I do see differences between 30s and under and over-30s, though. When it comes to deer sized animals, I don't see any difference at all. When it comes to caribou sized animals, it seems that the 30s (300wm, '06, and 308) and my .270 work about the same. Even in musk ox, talking with those who've used 300WMs, '06s and the like, their experience has been nigh identical with my wife's .270 and her mox. But, in caribou and larger animals, (sorry, I can't say about mox because I haven't drawn for that yet cry), it does seem to me that the 338s and up kill the animals just a bit faster. My experience with the 338 & 358 magnums is limited, but what little I have seen hasn't convinced me that they kill any faster than the varieties based on the '06 case.

So, I do see a difference, but at slightly larger sizes than .308, and I'm starting to believe the old Brits has something with their thoughts on medium velocities rather than real screamers.

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Years ago there was a series of books by Paul Matthews concerning using cast bullets and 45-70s on deer. Think he said they killed West Virginia whitetails pretty good. Don't know whether they would work on bigger ones.


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Allen:Deep down inside,I have to admit that the 300 magnums,as a class are at the top of the heap as an all-round,go anywhere,shoot-anything big game cartridge.They flat work,and really well,too,on any soft-skinned game I can think of.My experience has been with the Winchester,Weatherby,and H&H.They are easy to get to shoot accurately .I no longer own any,not because they aren't great,but because I no longer enjoy shooting them.It's an "age" thing and I want less recoil,so have backed off to the 7 Mag and 270 (second tier IMO,but still very good) almost exclusively,unless I feel I need more, in which case I just "cowboy up" and shoot the 375.But if you can't get 'er done with a Big 30,it's gonna be tough to do it with anything.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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"What Does a Bigger Cartridge Get You?"
Id say, CONFIDENCE BASED ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE,
What I see in the real world is that a good deal of the effectiveness of a firearm ,in any hunters hands will be related too the familiarity he has with it,and the amount of previous practice and confidence he has with that firearm.
As Ive stated in other threads I started my elk hunting experience using a 30/06 760 slide action, it killed every elk I shot ,lethality was never an issue, but I had little confidence in that rifle because the first few elk I shot ran after being hit (and hit well at fairly short distances BTW) being young I just KNEW I needed a bigger caliber and bought a 340 wby, I practiced extensively and hand load, and while the recoil had increased it was never a personal issue I considered objectionable.
Your obviously going to ask?
Did things improve?
well it depended on what your looking at,the next couple Elk I hit with the 340wby loaded with a 250 hornady sure reacted differently, most acted stunned, or staggered then fell, rather than running and falling like they did with the 30/06, but from a pragmatic view, a single shot from either rifle resulted in a dead elk rather rapidly.
I tend to TRUST the 33-45 caliber rifles loaded with 250 or heavier projectile,so thats what I carry my late hunting partner rarely carried anything but a 358 win BLR, and he killed 16 elk over 37 years we hunted together before he passed, so power is secondary to the CONFIDENCE YOU HAVE IN YOUR EQUIPMENT, and I could no more select the correct rifle for you than a wife or truck you want!

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Originally Posted by RockyRaab
But the guy who never hunts anything but deer and simply HAS to have a .349 Poundapowder Magnum? Well, that's the magnosterone brag factor, the Tim Allen effect, at work. And there are a LOT of those guys at the range.


Hell, those guys OWN the range, and it's just as true today as it was back in 2007 when you wrote that.



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Bigger doesn't matter, until it does.

If you can fire the bigger round as accurately as the smaller round then the larger round simply gives you a larger margin of error.

No matter how good the hunter, for a variety of reasons bullets end up landing slightly off the aiming point. If you're shooting a bullet that produces a 2" dia wound channel vs a 4" dia wound channel, the bullet that produces the 4" dia wound channel can be an inch further out from the aiming point and still do damage to the vitals.

If you're convinced you'll never place your shots around the edges, then a .223 or a .243 is all you need for NA game. If however you wish to have a bit of reserve terminal performance for those times that things don't go quite as planned, bigger is better.

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Must be off-season. Again!

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I have shot approx 20 white tails. I have never failed to recover one of these. I agree that a 7mm or larger Magnum is basically never needed. I do think that 06 based rounds give much more flexibility and confidence for quartering and longer shots. I am planning to hunt with a 260 some this year. I will be more selective with my shots than have been with a 280AI. To each is own.

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The one I like most is speed and the accompanying flatter trajectory. I.e. 30-30, 308, 30-06, 300 Win, and then up to the 30-378.


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That speed buys you range. I still consider the 06 the most efficient 30 for myself. doing all I need to 300+ yards. As I get older I am less enamored with the need for velocity.

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I've noticed a greater reaction to 250 gr bullets from my 35 Whelen than with smaller calibers. Except, there was one deer that caught a 100 gr. bullet from my .243 and dropped instantly. Probably because the bullet hit broadside, about an inch below the base of its antler.


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I'll use a bigger cartridge for various reasons: practice with a rifle that I plan to use on bigger game, a second license for bigger game and want to carry only one rifle, hunting on the prairie where there will be strong winds and more distant targets plus a larger deer.


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Originally Posted by 1minute
The one I like most is speed and the accompanying flatter trajectory. I.e. 30-30, 308, 30-06, 300 Win, and then up to the 30-378.


Trajectory is a non issue with rangefinders.

If you have to worry about trajectory, then you likely should be worrying more about what the wind is doing to the bullet... IMHO.


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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by 1minute
The one I like most is speed and the accompanying flatter trajectory. I.e. 30-30, 308, 30-06, 300 Win, and then up to the 30-378.


Trajectory is a non issue with rangefinders.

If you have to worry about trajectory, then you likely should be worrying more about what the wind is doing to the bullet... IMHO.


Agreed, but.... Do you have enough punch to take down big game at long distance with a mild cartrige? Let's say you pull the shot or misjudge the wind and impact a little back on the animal. In this case you would want all the energy possible. Not the time for a 22-250 with heavy for caliber bullet.

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Originally Posted by Carson
The skill of the Swedish hunters would be uniformly high as they are required to do the running moose target before being allowed to hunt. I can think of three writers who confirmed this, Jeff Cooper, Layne Simpson and some other writer whose name escapes me.


They need to do that because 95% of the Moose are shot on drives and anything thats brown is down.Its a meat hunt.


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