#1455011 - 05/27/07 11:41 AM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: goodnews]
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Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 9341
Loc: USA
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atkinson-
I've never owned or used a 458 Win or hunted in hot climates with any big bore or taken a buff although I do hope to rectify that.
While those here who've used the 458 W with good results have experience that cannot be denied, Terry Wieland's book, DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES, pretty much sums up the 458 W and it's past as you've described. He claims that many loads with a 500-gr bullet barely reached 1900 fps from a "standard length" barrel when it first came out. Obviously, the 458 has improved with more and different powders according to its proponents here.
It's an interesting discussion but why I am having a Lott built instead.
Gdv If you or Terry Wieland is claiming that a 45 cal.500 grain bullet at 1900 FPS is not effective then I have serious doubts about about anyhting else that is said....... 
_________________________
....they WAY overpenetrate on deer... A 9mm may expand but a 45 sure ain't gona shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
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#1455029 - 05/27/07 12:00 PM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: goodnews]
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Campfire Regular
Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 781
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First, lets look at some real first hand experience with the mythically troubled 458wm and Winchester factory 500gr solid ammo. Just two fellows in Zimbabwe killed nearly 10,000 elephant between them with the 458wm and neither ever had an issue. The two, Ron Thompson and Richard Harlan are both still alive. They didn't enjoy the substantial increase in performance available from today's powders, but Harlan clocked his old Winchester rounds at 2050fps on an Ohler.
Then we have Ray's stories. Hmmmm...
JPK
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#1455062 - 05/27/07 12:30 PM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: JPK]
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Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 9341
Loc: USA
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I have only owned one 458 Mag and that was when I lived in Alsaka. the rifle was a Interarms Whitworth and it gave me 2110 fps with 500 grain bullets and IMR-4895..... 
_________________________
....they WAY overpenetrate on deer... A 9mm may expand but a 45 sure ain't gona shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
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#1455286 - 05/27/07 03:37 PM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: goodnews]
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Campfire Regular
Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 1079
Loc: SW AK, Downstream of Pebble
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There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities. With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems. If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com" The problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell
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#1455298 - 05/27/07 03:50 PM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: 458Win]
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Campfire Outfitter
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 9341
Loc: USA
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There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities. With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems. If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets. Precisely....  The Picture below is of a Bison that I took with a 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain WFLN hard cast bullet at 1120 fps and the bullet went completely through and exited the animal.If the 500 grain out of the 458 only got 1900 fps nothing is going to walk away from that..... 
_________________________
....they WAY overpenetrate on deer... A 9mm may expand but a 45 sure ain't gona shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill
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#1455451 - 05/27/07 05:35 PM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: 458Win]
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Campfire Tracker
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 6035
Loc: Iowa
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But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets. Nope, and thought I'd made it clear I'm not. As to your and other's success with the 458 W, the lawyers are want to say, "res ipsa loquitor", or "the thing speaks for itself". This is not an argument on my part. Gdv
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#1456489 - 05/28/07 11:24 AM
Re: 458 Winchester Load Development Results
[Re: jwp475]
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Campfire Regular
Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 781
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There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities. With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems. If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets. Precisely....  The Picture below is of a Bison that I took with a 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain WFLN hard cast bullet at 1120 fps and the bullet went completely through and exited the animal.If the 500 grain out of the 458 only got 1900 fps nothing is going to walk away from that..... JWP475, Unfortunately, a .458", 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not sufficient for reliable penetration on elephants. It is barely enough on Cape Buffalo which are in a different league bone structure wise than our American Bison. Effective, reliable performance of 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solids on elephants starts at about 2000fps, maybe 2025fps, and goes up from there. I have killed elephants with .458" 500gr steel jacketed solids at 2050fps and at 2135fps, both work but the difference is pretty aparrent. There is only 85fps difference in the two loads, going to 1900fps is loosing 150fps from none to far from the minimum. Interestingly, a flat nose .458" mono copper solid at 2190fps will outpenetrate the heavier solid by a huge margin. For the elephant, the bullet must often travel three feet or more through very thick, tough skin and then sinew, muscle, solid bone, liquid filled honey comb and finally a last thin shell before reaching the brain. Might have to deal with tusk sockets and tusks too depending on the angle. On top of that, it is good insurance to be shooting a load that will still have the energy to break the spine if the brain is missed low or enough energy to concuss the ele to knock it down, especially if it is trying to kill you. JPK
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