Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 458 Winchester Load Development Results

Hey Phil,

Please stop contradicting the internet truth with real world experince and facts. Its screws up the whole process. . .(wink).

BMT

jwp, roundnosed bullets out of rifles stand a better than 50% chance of running offcourse, that's what JPK is referring to. Now, if you're just using roundnoses on your handgun, you'll run into the same problem too. Flatnose bullets with at least a 30% meplat works on everything, rifles and handguns.

Flat points are definately the way to go no disagreement there.........

To No One in Particular but to All -

As one who has no experience here I can say neither "aye" or "nay" in regard to it on the 458 Win.

What I do know is I respect each one here and if you look up through this thread there is a great deal of information here, most "pro" but some "con". Some of you buy GMC; some buy Ford; but you have your reasons and you pay your money; I would venture to say that at any one time, place, and circumstance each could be right.



Gdv

What about Dodge,especiaaly with the Cummins?...

So logically, if I load .458 wadcutters in my rifle, and download it to 45-70 ballistics, I can shoot through an entire herd of elephants ? Or I'm suppose to shoot through Fords?
I think I better go hunting.

I don't get your analogy??
I don't recall any one talking about wad cutters.. You must have a hell of a 45-70 to get 1900 FPS with a 500 grain solid...

Time and experience have shown that a .458" roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not reliable for use on elephants. Likewise, it seems that about 2025fps is reliable. I do not doubt that loads running 1900fps have from time to time killed elephants but they are not reliable since a given brain shot may require little penetration - as when the elephant has its head down - or great penetration - as when it has its head up. Further not every shot will avoid the tusk socket or tusk.

If you would like to read more on the topic, try looking at African-hunter.com for some of the articles available there.

Another point, flat nose mono solids outperform roundnose solids. I do not know if the flat nose advantage reduces the required velocity for reliable penetration for use on elephants. My own flat nose mono solid load shoots a 450gr bullet at 2190fps, faster than my 2135fps current 500gr round nose load.

JPK

Ray,

I guess I do become annoyed when I read mythical baloney spread by the uninformed.

JPK

JPK, Thanks...........

JWP475
Since Wadcutters are the ultimate flat nose bullet and, if one believes the "flat nose penetrate better" crowd are correct, then obviously they should penetrate farther than anything else.
Also, since some folks believe pistols with low SD, flat nosed bullets at low velocity will out penetrate heavy rifles !?


I was being facetious.

Yeah, but, only for one thing. They have lousy SD's and don't carry far. Having shot PPC way back when, the wadcutter loads were good up to 50 yds. Sometimes up to 100 yds with some hopped-up wadcutter loads. In 357's they failed miserably. I know of some who handloaded some wadcutters with copious amounts of Unique and 2400 to no avail. Up close, it was just OK, no better than the SWC's of the period. The wadcutter just didn't have the body shape to go very far.

If you were as sharp as you think you are you would know that a wadd cutter is not accurate to much distance and that they are not of optimum meplat size for proper penetration. A meplt of 78% of bullet diameter with a trunecated cone shape seems to be optimum for great pentration in the 475 to 500 cal. Revolvers. I have seen a 425 grain 500JRH with a 78% meplat out penetrarte a 500 grain out of a 500 Linebagh with a 72% meplat and pentrate the same as a 525 grain out of a 500 Linebaugh with a 77% meplat and a radised nose. The same 525 grain shot from a 50 Alaskan revolver did not pentrate more than the 500 Linebaugh despite nearly 500 fps more velocity. Like I stated earlier the Gentleman in New Orleans has killed a lot of Elephants ( It i said to be 100 bull Elephants,not counting cows) and I tend to think that he has a bit of experience,as he has used both revolver and rifle....... JPK whom also has a lot of experience with the rifles on Elephant stated that round nose solids do not penetrate as far as flat point solids.and that his favorite solid is a 450 flat point,there is a dfinate trend that indicates that SD is not the only factor.......apparently these subttle yet important differences escapes you..........

Just for the record your condisending tone did not escape me..........

[Quote] by JPK
Another point, flat nose mono solids outperform roundnose solids. I do not know if the flat nose advantage reduces the required velocity for reliable penetration for use on elephants. My own flat nose mono solid load shoots a 450gr bullet at 2190fps, faster than my 2135fps current 500gr round nose load.
[Quote]


I believe that JPK has quite a bit of experience on Elephant and I believe that his answer carries a bit of wieght.......

jwp, didn't you see his last line, "I was being facetious?"

With regard to the contention that flat nosed solids seem to penetrate more than round noses, I wonder if anyone has an opinion of North Fork 450s vs. Barnes monolithics. The latter have a 7mm meplat, about 45% of the bullet diameter. North Fork meplats are slightly wider.

.458 Trajectory for "long range":

I finally shot some 450 grain TSXs at 200 yards. Sighted in at 100 yards, they dropped about 7 inches at 200. 350 grain Hornady's did not do any better so I guess the 450s win.

Granted, you would not sight in for 100 yards for plains game only, but rather about 3" high at that range. But it's nice to know that if you sight in for dangerous game (100 yard zero), it won't be too hard to shoot antelope at 200.

jwp475, I don't claim to be "sharp" and I certainly do not know all there is to know about anything - including guns. I am always willing to listen to those more knowledgeable and experienced than I. Since you seem to know a lot about flat nosed bullets and deep penetration I would like to hear about your experiences and where you acheived your knowledge. In order to correctly give credit where it is due I would also like to know who you are?
I am not ashamed of who I am or to share how I got my experience.




Anonimity, like the masks worn by terrorists, gives courage to cowards.

Indy
With my limited use of Barnes, I find that it's a longer bullet that eats up cartridge space and won't necessarily shoot in any particular rifle. My experience with them has been only with the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby. I couldn't do better than 2" with either and often keyholed on target. Some rifles like 'em and some don't. Never had that problem with the North Forks.

I don't think it is prudent to givee out your idenity on the internet.I have allready had one of my accounts breached and idenity stollen,because I was not careful enough and it cost me a large sum of money. Your inuendo about being a coward is rather ridiculous. As I mentu=ioned in the PM attend the Linebaugh seminar in Cody,Wy. and I will look you in the eye and introduce myself and bring your 458 with round nose solids and watch the 500 and 475 revolvers out penetrate it in wet News paper. I remember your article on shooting Bison with your 458 Win. and 450 grain Northforh softs and if memorior serve they did not exit. My 500 Linebaugh in the picture posted ealier in this thread did indeed exit...........

.475 Guy:

Both the 450 grain North Forks and the 450 grain Barnes monolithics seem to shoot about the same sized groups in my rifle and there are no keyholes.

The difference I see is that it is hard to crimp the NFs with a Lee factory crimping die because the grooves are so small, as are the driving bands between the grooves. Did you crimp yours and how did you do it?