If you or Terry Wieland is claiming that a 45 cal.500 grain bullet at 1900 FPS is not effective then I have serious doubts about about anyhting else that is said.......

I did not say that nor did I say he stated that.

First, lets look at some real first hand experience with the mythically troubled 458wm and Winchester factory 500gr solid ammo. Just two fellows in Zimbabwe killed nearly 10,000 elephant between them with the 458wm and neither ever had an issue. The two, Ron Thompson and Richard Harlan are both still alive. They didn't enjoy the substantial increase in performance available from today's powders, but Harlan clocked his old Winchester rounds at 2050fps on an Ohler.

Then we have Ray's stories. Hmmmm...

JPK

I have only owned one 458 Mag and that was when I lived in Alsaka. the rifle was a Interarms Whitworth and it gave me 2110 fps with 500 grain bullets and IMR-4895.....

JPK

You'll note I didn't say that it wasn't effective nor that it hasn't been used successfully throughout it's history. I am not arguing against the 458 W.; I am merely telling you what Wieland wrote in his book and what has been repeated often times before. I'm not even arguing the validity of what has been written, just stating that what atkinson stated has been "commonly reported"; whether urban myth or not.

I can say that it influenced me to build mine a Lott. But note that I also stated that "while those here who have used the 458 W. effectively have experience that cannot be denied" immediately after I stated I have no experience with it.

I have to admit that 10k ele's certainly should be statistically significant but it does not necessarily completely rule out design flaws. And again, I'm not saying it has them but this is about discussing rationally the merits of a cartridge and its "growth" over time with new and better components as implied in the thread's title against this "history" of failing - according to some - to be what it was advertised to be at its inception.

I enjoy this gentlemen because of what I learn here.

Gdv

There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities.
With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems.
If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.

To my mind the biggest argument in favor of the 458 Win is that it doesn't require a massive action in order to work properly. This means it can be made up into a lighter, slicker rifle that is easier to carry and that will make for a shooter who is less fatigued and quicker to the shot when the shot presents itself. If you're going big why not go all the way? If 150fps with a 500gr bullet is enough for you to want to lug around an extra pound of rifle, why not go with the 505 Gibbs? No compaction problems there...

Precisely....

The Picture below is of a Bison that I took with a 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain WFLN hard cast bullet at 1120 fps and the bullet went completely through and exited the animal.If the 500 grain out of the 458 only got 1900 fps nothing is going to walk away from that.....

Nope, and thought I'd made it clear I'm not. As to your and other's success with the 458 W, the lawyers are want to say, "res ipsa loquitor", or "the thing speaks for itself".

This is not an argument on my part.

Gdv

JWP475,

Unfortunately, a .458", 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not sufficient for reliable penetration on elephants. It is barely enough on Cape Buffalo which are in a different league bone structure wise than our American Bison. Effective, reliable performance of 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solids on elephants starts at about 2000fps, maybe 2025fps, and goes up from there.

I have killed elephants with .458" 500gr steel jacketed solids at 2050fps and at 2135fps, both work but the difference is pretty aparrent. There is only 85fps difference in the two loads, going to 1900fps is loosing 150fps from none to far from the minimum.

Interestingly, a flat nose .458" mono copper solid at 2190fps will outpenetrate the heavier solid by a huge margin.

For the elephant, the bullet must often travel three feet or more through very thick, tough skin and then sinew, muscle, solid bone, liquid filled honey comb and finally a last thin shell before reaching the brain. Might have to deal with tusk sockets and tusks too depending on the angle. On top of that, it is good insurance to be shooting a load that will still have the energy to break the spine if the brain is missed low or enough energy to concuss the ele to knock it down, especially if it is trying to kill you.

JPK