"If they would actually try loads with powders like AA2230 they would see that the 458 Win indeed does equal - and often best - the old nitro cartridges that they dearly love."

Exactly right in my opinion. Example: The 470 Nitro Express fired a 480 grain bullet at a listed 2150 fps (if I recall correctly). Further, that was in a 28" barrel. Even the double rifles of the time usually had 24" or 26" barrels, so the true velocity was more like 2050 (see the book "Ndlovu" for documentation of this).

It is no trick at all to load a .458 with a 24" barrel to 2200 fps (chronographed) with a 500 grain solid. Heavier bullet at higher velocity beats the .470 by a lot. And the .458 even has better sectional density for penetration.

Finally, today's bullets like Barnes monolithics and North Fork make the .458 even better, though these are available for other calibers as well.

Those whom would look down their long noses at the .458WM while holding a .470NE in their hands are more interested in what other people see them holding than ballistics. I doubt their ego will allow them to see clearly.

Indy,

You point is right on but the support you cite is off a little.

The 450NE 3 1/4", grandfather of all smokeless DG cartridges, shoots a 480gr bullet at a nominal 2150fps, specced at 28" barrels. I have a log somewhere that records actual velocities acheived by owners of 450NE 3 1/4" rifles with loads that regulate and the velocity range is from 2050fps or so to one that reached 2165fps. Like you say, most rifles had 24" or 26" barrels, though there are some that have 28" barreles.

The 470 shoots a 500gr bullet at a nominal 2125fps out of a 31" barrel. For some fun comparrisons see Kynoch's website here: http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/

My elephant and buffalo loads push a 500 at 2135fps as I have mentioned this is beyond the in the field performance of most all 450NE rifles. Throw in the 450 NF's which penetrate further and the 458wm is more rifle today than the 450NE and 470NE which remain benchmarks for their record of success in the field.

The old, but often repeated myth of lagging 458wm performance is just that, myth.

JPK

JPK: Just for my edification, are ALL loads compressed in the 458Win in order to achieve 2100 fps regardless of powder used? thanks, jorge

No. You can get loads that are not compressed, even at 2100 fps. There may be issues with pressure however.

Jorge,

No. Neither of my loads is compressed and I'm not using a drop tube, though I do tap the cases to settle the powder. My loads are not near maximum by the "book" but they sure work. I had my North Fork load pressure tested and it is well below maximum.

I don't get the issue with lighly compressed loads anyway. While I have never used a compressed load, that I know of - maybe factory fodder ?, from what I read, 100% or slightly higher load density aids in reliability. The old issues were with powder that clumped due to storage and age issues. I use fresh ammo for DG hunting just because I load and shoot alot prior to my trips. Seems easy to avoid even remotely possible problems by loading fresh ammo for any DG trip, no matter what cartridge you're using.

JPK

When you get 100% density, you have compaction. The case is full to the top, then you stick a long 450 or 500 gr. bullet in it, you have compaction.

These are not "old stories", it happens every year a couple of times. In my business we hear about it when it happens. It has happened with factory ammo. It has happened in our camp several times over the years and enough times that I won't hunt with the .458 Win.

For those that are convinced otherwise, that is there choice but I see no reason to position myself in that group, based on my own experiences, when I have so many choices, such as punching it out just a tad to a .458 Lott, and loading the Lott down and really lowering the pressure.

What I suggest is put that 100% density ammo on the shelf for a year, then pull the bullets, you will have to dig it out with a screw driver as a rule. I don't find it unusual that someone has good luck at the range in hot temps with compacted ammo, but then the gun has not been sitting in the sun for hours at a time as it may be in Africa.

As to killing power, I have no complaints with the .458, any bullet weighing 500 grs. at 2000 FPS will kill anything., but reliability in the field is foremost with me, as I have seen many cases where a hunter is in a precarious position and his gun jams, or misfires or doesn't fire, and he is playing switch finger while everyone else is sorting out his mess.

I also see a lot of loads for that caliber that just don't click on my chronograph and velocity is guessed and by goshed at.

The above is only my personal opinnion, your is yours. If you are confident with the .458 then by all means use it.

JPK: Being a Weatherby shooter, I have no issues with lightly compressed loads, that is, where the base of the bullet lightly pushes down on the powder. I don't own a 458, but if one were to ever come up, I'd have no issues with one, but I much prefer a 450 Dakota or Rigby. jorge

Ray, You know I am interested in this stuff and I would love to hear your first hand accounts of the 458's failings and the details as to why. Is it possible that any of the loads you saw fail were old and/or factory ? Have you actually tried any AA2230 powder in the 458 ? It works wonders in my experience and tales of acheiving 2300fps are not exagerated.
Finn Aagaard always claimed that most of the 458 bashing was due to hunters blaming their ammo for their poor shooting. Currently Don Heath, Charlie Haley and Mike LaGrange, who as you know, are three of the foremost ballistic experts in Africa ( with many years and many thousands of elephants to their credit) claim that the current 458 Win is one of the best elephant cartridges.
Elephants and buffalo are not my field but I can verify that good 500gr bullets @ 2100fps drops big bears with the authority of a crane falling on them.

atkinson-

I've never owned or used a 458 Win or hunted in hot climates with any big bore or taken a buff although I do hope to rectify that. I'm a non-expert and am not posing as one.

While those here who've used the 458 W with good results have experience that cannot be denied, Terry Wieland's book, DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES, pretty much sums up the 458 W and it's past as you've described. He claims that many loads with a 500-gr bullet barely reached 1900 fps from a "standard length" barrel when it first came out. Obviously, the 458 has improved with more and different powders according to its proponents here and sounds like it has become what was originally intended.

It's an interesting discussion but why I am having a Lott built instead. And I freely admit I'm doing it based purely on what I've read. I can have a 458 W- a 500-gr bullet at an easy 2150 to 2200 fps - but at greatly reduced pressure.

Gdv