Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 300 Savage/150gr/Varget

Do any of you load the 300 Savage with Varget and 150gr bullets. In seaching for a hunting load I tried this with the Sierra 150gr RN & SPT bullets, WLR primers and FC cases. I loaded & shot three rounds each of four loads starting at 40.9gr and ending with 44.5gr. All seemed normal. Both showed good accuracy, but I didn't clock them. To better test the accuracy I loaded 25 of each bullet with 44.5gr. Varget from a new lot and a new lot of WLR. The temp when I shot these was mid 80's. The first two groups of five had terrible accuracy, were hitting 9" high at 100yds. A second five-shot group of the SPT shot well, but still 9" high. The SPT went 2680fps, and the RN 2700fps. The barrel seemed hotter than normal, and the cases more sticky and distended. I thought I was puting the finishing touches on a hunting load for this fall, but now I think this charge is too much. I'm going to pull the bullets and redue the charge to 43.0gr.

Three questions:

(1)What do you run?

(2)Did the load manuals increase the pressure of the 300 Savage? They used to(Sierra 3rd ed)top out at 2600fps and used a 99 for testing. Now they top out at up to 2800 and use bolt actions.

(3)Is the load I cited maybe suitable for bolt guns but not 99s?

We haven't tried Varget in my sons EG, but RL-15 did well enough that we stopped there.

What made you decide on using Varget ?

Youper.....

Below is an excerpt from my reloading records showing the results of a thorough test of Hodgdon's VARGET rifle powder in my Model 99 in .300 Savage caliber. I noted in your post that you used 44.5 grains of Varget behind a 150 grain bullet.

According to the respected, nationally-known reloading manual from which I took my loads, the MAXIMUM LOAD of VARGET, using a 150 grain bullet is 42.0 grains. If this amount is still valid, your loads are 2� grains OVER MAXIMUM LOAD.

I took a chance and loaded one set of 3 rounds at 42.2 grains... or .2 of a grain OVER the indicated MAXIMUM LOAD and it showed NO HIGH PRESSURE SIGNS. This, to me, indicates that while no high pressures sign were evident, it is a fair possibility that high chamber pressure DID exist.

Unless you've found reliable data (i.e., data published by a recognized source) that indicates your 44.5 grain load of Varget is safe, I'd recommend you back off the 44.5 grain load and drop it down to 42.0 grains (or less) or switch powders to IMR3031, IMR4895, RL15 or some other specific powder load published in recognized reloading manuals.



MAY 28, 2003 � TEST OF HODGDON�S VARGET RIFLE POWDER

I loaded Varget powder in amounts ranging from 40.4 to 42.2 grains (.2 grain over �maximum suggested load�) of Varget using 5X fired, accurized Winchester cases, Winchester standard large rifle primers and a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, boat-tailed bullets.

According to the latest (2002) Lxxxx Reloading Handbook, a maximum load of 42.0 grains of Varget with a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullet was chronographed by Lxxxx ballisticians at 2740 fps. In my tests, I could come no where near that velocity chronographing the rounds with my chronograph.

As a �control�, after I finished chronographing all the Varget loads, I fired and chronographed a 3-shot �control� group using my �back-up� hunting loads of 41.5 grains of IMR4895 w/ a 150 grain Nosler B.T. and Winchester standard large rifle primers which yielded an average muzzle velocity of 2686 fps. This MV is slightly higher than my previous average MV of 2675 fps.

The following are the average muzzle velocities attained by the amount of Varget Rifle Powder shown. This test was done on 5/28/03, temperature 70� at the rifle range at Troy Fish & Game Club.

40.4 grs. = 2514 fps average MV.
40.6 grs. = 2525 fps avg.
40.8 grs. = 2546 fps avg.
41.0 grs. = 2539 fps avg.
41.2 grs. = 2523 fps avg.
41.4 grs. = 2576 fps avg.
41.6 grs. = 2590 fps avg.
41.8 grs. = 2606 fps avg.
42.0 grs. = 2615 fps avg. (MAXIMUM Published load)
42.2 grs. = 2621 fps avg. (No high pressure signs noted)

Control load: 41.5 gr. IMR4895 =
2671, 2698, 2684 fps = 2686 avg. fps.


CONCLUSION: Varget Rifle Powder

Varget is not particularly more accurate than any other powder I�ve tried in my Savage Model 99EG Rifle and it was a complete disappointment in that it was unable to attain the muzzle velocity (2740 fps-24� barrel) published in the 2002 Lxxxx Reloading Handbook with the published maximum load (42.0 grains), reaching only an average muzzle velocity of 2615 fps� well below the 2740 fps indicated in the 2002 Lxxxx Reloading Handbook.

After thorough tests of primers and different amounts of different rifle powders, I have concluded that a load of 41.5 grains (max. book load) of IMR4895 behind a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, boat-tailed bullet, using a Winchester standard large rifle primer and �accurized� Winchester cartridge cases is the best all-around hunting load for my Savage Model 99EG Rifle. It�s accuracy combined with it�s muzzle velocity assures more than enough knock-down power within reasonable ranges.

NOTE: Later tests of a new container of IMR4895 purchased in 2005 or 2006 have shown that the factory recipe for IMR4895 may have changed due to the fact that later chronographed loads consisting of same components & amounts as above yielded a muzzle velocity considerably slower (2548 fps @ 35�) than the IMR4895 powder containers I purchased in 1995, 2002, 2003 and 2004 which averaged 2680 to 2707 fps @ 80�.

To insure the accuracy of the test results of the newest IMR4895 I had just purchased, I wisely took along 3 rounds loaded with the older IMR4895 powder for use as a "control group" which I shot under the same conditions (temperature 35�) as the .300 Savage rounds loaded with the newest IMR4895. The average muzzle velocity of this "control group" yielded 2630 fps... or over 80 fps faster than the cartridges loaded with the new IMR4895 powder.

As a result of these tests, I am now looking for a new hunting load for my Model 99 in .300 Savage and will probably test IMR3031 again plus RL15 at some point in the future.

While some others might not agree, I believe the factory has changed the chemical recipe for IMR4895 since, in my 45+ years of reloading experience, I've never had any lot-to-lot powder variation cause this great a muzzle velocity variation in any firearm I've ever tested.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Youper:

I have used Varget in my 99 F with 22" barrel. My recipe consisted of 42.0 grains of Varget, a Sierra 150 Pro hunter and a Federal 210M primer and W-W Brass. I got an even 2600 fps out of it. Accuracy was on the order of 1.5 inches for a 5 shot group at 100 however I have made clover leafs at 50 yards for 3 shots with this combo. The Lyman manual sites a 26" test barrel as achieving 2741 fps with a similar recipe so 2641 out of a 22" barrel is more realistic..............with my load at 2600, that is close enough given variation in components. I think 44.5 is hot in a 99. A Dec 2006 article in G&A refers to 44 grains of Varget under a Sierra 150 PH in the .300 Sav giving 2726 fps from a 99......but it sounds like a barrel straining load to me. My records show I shot at 43 grains (2655 fps) but accuracy deteriorated so I backed off.

When using a different lot of powder, I'd advise working the load up again especially when you are at as heavy a load as you describe on a hot day. Personally I'd load up 40/41/42 grain batches with the new lot and hopefully settle on the 42 grain load. I'd also avoid using that Sierra 150 on any shot on whitetails where heavy bone may be encountered. Stick to heart and lung shots with this frangible bullet.

Best of luck,

300jimmy

Check the face of the case heads on that FC brass. I got a batch of them that looked wavy. This is a possible source for fliers. The FC brass I have is also much thicker than R-P and W-W so this can raise pressures too.

2800 fps with a 150 is on the hot side for my 300 Savage, which is a Remington 700 Classic. From people whose opinion on these matters I respect (e.g. John Barsness and RonT) I'd say the upper end for a '99 is about 2700 fps with powders in this burn rate class.

A bunch of folks have found that the WLR may not be ideal for Varget. This mainly comes from 308 shooters, but that's right next door to the present situation. Try the CCI 200, or for a little more jingle the CCI BR-2.

RonT and I have a "friendly feud" going about Varget, but don't let that get in your way.

mathman

300jimmy,

I didn't search your posts, so the answer may already be out there, , but I'll ask anyway.

Have you had a bad experience with this bullet at 300 Savage speeds? My father had a unbroken string of one shot kills with 150 grain Speer and Sierra boat tails launched out of a 30-06 on top of a crisp load of 4064. So we're probably looking at 250 fps more than Savage speeds.

BTW there's no dispute here, I'm just collecting evidence.

mathman

Mathman.........I got my deer with a neck shot at 60 yards using the Sierra 150 pro hunter. It is the only kill with this bullet but man what an explosive result. The entrance wound was about 5 X 7" and the exit was about the size of a baseball. Needless to say he didnt go anywhere but as my hunting partner put it, "you darn near blew his head off". For me that experience soured me on Sierra. Tech service told me it typical of a shot near heavy bone. I don't know about that. I used Hornadies and plain jane Remington PSPCL's for 20+ years and never seen such a sight.

I've found Varget to be an excellent powder in my 1957 99R. My components are Remington brass, WLR primer, and the Speer 150-grain spitzer (Hot-Cor). Average velocity with 42 grains of Varget for ten shots was 2620 fps. That's about what I expected, but what I didn't expect was sub-MOA accuracy: .8" for a five-shot first group! Another four groups produced .6", .75", .9", .7", & 1.0" for an average of .79". I was never able to get groups better than 1.5" from this rifle before trying Varget.

I like Reloder 15 for the heavier bullets, such as the Speer 200-grain spitzer. Using their maximum data, the chronograph showed 2410 fps. Accuracy is 1.5" to 2". I'd probably choose this load if I were going after big stuff, like moose or grizzly. If they ever show up in Virgina, I'm all set.

DanLee

gd'40EG-300: I took the load staight out of the Sierra 5th edition. I'm not a speed freak, and am looking for an accurate load at about 2600fps. Sierra suggested this load as their "hunting load."

Ron: If I am digesting your comments correctly, then any 150 load for a 300 over 2600 should be suspect. I don't have my data with me now, but all the Varget charges I tried were pretty good, so I'll just start at the beginning and chronograph as I go up.

Youper....

No... I regularly get muzzle velocities in the mid-2600s with several different powders. If you re-read my post, I even mentioned my "hunting load" being used as "control load" and yielding M.V.s in the 2680 fps range.

What I said about Varget was that it was a "stuggle" to get any muzzle velocities over the very low 2600s with Varget. And other Members who posted their experience with Varget also indicated they didn't get much beyond 2600-2610 fps or so with the MAXIMUM loads (42.0 grains) of Varget they tried in their rifles.

Rather than waste your time with Varget, I'd suggest you try IMR4895 & IMR3031. I found (at least 2 or 3 years ago) that the MAXIMUM load of IMR4895 (41.5 grains) or a MAXIMUM load of IMR3031 (40.0 grains) both gave muzzle velocities in the 2650 fps to 2680 fps range using 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet and sparked by standard Winchester large rifle primers in once-fired, "accurized" standard Winchester cartridge cases with the bullet seated out to the 2.600-inch maximum cartridge length (with bullet).

Back in about 2002, I did some extensive load testing with IMR3031, IMR4895, IMR4064 and Hodgdon's Varget. I tested various loads of all four powders with six different primers in four different brands (CCI, Winchester, Remington and Federal).

My goal was to (1) achieve the highest possible accuracy consistent with the (2) highest possible muzzle velocity. By a considerable margin, the Winchester primers produced the most accurate 3-shot groups... one as small as .0917" (41.1 grains of IMR4895) and several 3-shot groups measuring less than .2 inches @ 50 yards.

IMR4895 was the BEST performing powder with IMR3031 coming in a close 2nd. Unfortunately, I've experienced a considerable drop in muzzle velocity with the latest container of IMR4895 I purchased last year. While the low velocity may be due to just THAT individual bottle (packaged in a Hodgdon bottle rather than the familiar IMR can), it has caused me to start investigating a possible change in my "hunting load" which consists of a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet in front of a MAXIMUM load (41.5 grains) of IMR4895 sparked by a standard Winchester primer in an "accurized" Winchester cartridge case.

While I got slightly greater accuracy with 41.1 grains of IMR4895, I wanted to retain the extra 50 fps the 41.5 grain load (chronographed) gave me.

While I still have 17 hunting rounds loaded with the older IMR4895, I would like to develop a new "hunting load" so that I could practice with it and, of course, so that I could check the "zero" on the rifle prior to going to deer camp in late November.

At this time, I'm considering the purchase of another "bottle" of IMR4895 to insure the bottle I purchased last year was the way IMR4895 is going to perform from now on... or that the bottle purchased last year was a "fluke"... and not typical of IMR4895.

In addition, I am considering going back to the 40.0 grain load of IMR3031 (using the same components as above) which was fairly accurate and yielded a chronographed muzzle velocity in the 2650 fps to 2660 fps range.

Other Forum Members have recommended RL15 (Reloder) as a very accurate powder for use with a 150 grain .300 Savage bullet.

Frankly, I truly dislike going away from my original hunting load of 41.5 grains of IMR4895 I originally began using in 1995 because it proved to be so very accurate and yielded excellent muzzle velocity with great consistency until I began using powder out of the last bottle I bought.

However, I can't accept a muzzle velocity of only 2548 fps when I know my handloads are capable of accurate rounds yielding muzzle velocities considerably higher.

BTW, I'm still using the original 100 virgin Winchester brass I originally bought to reload. They are now on the 9th. reloading and I've not had ANY "case failures". This long case life tells me that this load is not only accurate and yields excellent muzzle velocities, but that the chamber pressure must be somewhat less than "maximum"... a "win/win" situation and the primary reason I don't wanna drop this load for my continuing use as my "hunting load".


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron,

What kind of results did you get with 4064? I'm thinkin' of trying that with the 150's. I've used both RE 15 and IMR 4895 with 4895 being preferred at about the load weight you are using. Looking at some manuals, Speer and Lyman, makes me think 4064 would be a possible too. Thanks.

Steve

Steve......

Here are excerpts from my reloading notes. As you'll read, I found IMR4064 "ok", but not as accurate as IMR4895 or IMR3031.

As I remember, I think the MAXIMUM load of IMR4064 showed high pressure signs in my Model 99 as well... but that's why I keep notes so I don't have to "strain" my little pee-brain to try to remember things.



.300 SAVAGE TEST RESULTS (6/17/02)
(temps 73� to 75�)
PRIMER TESTS (6/17/02):
40.0 gr. IMR3031 (max. load), 150 gr. Nosler Bal.Tip, 2X-fired Winchester cases

CCI-Bench rest: 2681, 2657, 2657 fps. (Avg. 2667 fps) (2 velocities unknown)

FEDERAL: 2659, 2648, 2652, 2648 & 2661 fps. (Avg. 2654 fps.)
Std. Deviation: 13 fps., (+7 fps., -6 fps.)

REMINGTON: 2618, 2610, 2623, 2603 & 2640 (Avg. 2618 fps.)

WINCHESTER STD: 2646, 2636, 2638, 2648 & 2653 (Avg. 2644 fps.)
Std. Deviation: 17 fps. (+9 fps., -8 fps.)




VELOCITY RESULTS using IMR4064, Rem.9� primer & Win. Cases

41.8 grains gave a 5-shot average of 2598 fps,
42.0 gr. = 2608 fps,
42.2 gr = 2635 fps,
42.4 gr. = 2628 fps,
42.6 gr. = 2623 fps,
42.8 gr. = 2609 fps
43.0 gr. = 2634 fps. (maximum load)

Accuracy was good with most loads printing (at 50 yards) 3-shot groups of 3/8th inch and 4-shot groups of 3/4th inch. However, there was always one �flier�� and occasionally 2 �fliers�.

Note the unusual variation in these loads wherein more powder yields less velocity with all other components remaining the same. Since this is normally unlikely, it is possible the relatively heavy crushing of powder granules during bullet seating may account for this unusual velocity differential.



CONCLUSION-IMR4064 RIFLE POWDER

The last 5 velocities attained in this test, from 42.2 grains to 43.0 grains are questionable. The 43.0 grain load IS definitely a �maximum load� and yields only 2634 fps. It is a heavily compressed load & this may be the reason for the unusual velocity readings. I doubt that IMR4064 is the best powder for my particular M-99 in .300 Savage caliber. Of course, it�s also possible a different primer (Rem. 9� was used) may yield different results.



PRESSURE INDICATIONS: 6/17/02 (74�)

IMR3031- Using 40.0 grains (max. load), loaded 5 rounds using each of the four different primers after short �work up� to that level. All primers showed some flattening with CCI-Bench Rest & Remington primers showing 95%-100% flattening. Winchester std. Large rifle primer showing about 80% flattening and Federal showing some machine marks and about 60% flattening.

IMR4895(loaded in 1999 using powder purchased in 1995)- At 41.5 grains (max. load) using Remington 9� primer and Winchester cases gave the following velocities in the order of 1 through 5 shots- 2728, 2718, 2696, 2702 & 2692 for an average velocity of 2707 fps. Primers were 80% flattened. These rounds were loaded in 1999 for use in the old M-99 w/22� barrel.

IMR4064- Loaded 5 rounds at each load-level starting at 41.8 grains increasing in .2 grain increments to 43.0 grains. The first 2 of 5 rounds @ 43.0 grains using Remington 9� primers had 100% flatten primers. This is definitely a �maximum load� at 2634 fps average velocity. The last 3 rounds flatten 90% , but still had some �rounding� to them. Next lighter loaded rounds (42.8 grains) showed no flatten of primers.



CONCLUSIONS OF 6/17/02 TESTS:

1. Use 3-shot groups ONLY in future testing.
2. New loads should be �worked up� with IMR3031, IMR4895 and IMR4064 powders using only Federal and Winchester primers.
3. Special notice should be paid to the velocity/accuracy of all IMR4895 loads because it is yielding higher than expected velocities while IMR3031 loads are not yielding �published� velocities.
4. The higher velocities yielded by the IMR 4895 may be due to the 24-inch barrel on the new M-99 vs. the 22-inch barrel on the old M-99 and the 22-inch test rifle barrel used by Lxxxx to get data for their Reloading Handbook.
5. Velocities attained from the use of IMR4064 are inconclusive due to wide variation in velocities while powder amounts differed little.

TESTS CONDUCTED JUNE 24, 2002

Firing tests were done using equal charges of just purchased IMR4895 powder comparing Winchester primers to Federal primers. I expected Federal primers to come out not only being more consistent, but also giving more velocity and better accuracy. This did not happen. The Winchester primers showed very good consistency and the best accuracy, especially at or close to maximum charges.

As fouling shots, I again used 5 of the rounds loaded as hunting loads in 1999 using Remington 9� primers & 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet. Again, the 5 rounds consisting of 41.5 grains of IMR4895 (bgt. in 1995) had an average velocity over 2700 fps (2704 fps). I can only conclude the increased velocity must be due to the old powder.

Velocity & accuracy were excellent using Winchester Standard Large Rifle Primers with just purchased IMR4895 with the largest 3 powder charges. These results using 3-shot groups fired at 50 YARDS were:
 41.1 grains yielded a group measuring .112-inches @ 2647 fps. Deviation was 13 fps, +6 fps. / -7 fps.
 41.3 grains yielded a group measuring .221-inches @ 2660 fps. Deviation was 4 fps, +3 fps / -1 fps.
 41.5 grains yielded a group measuring .191-inches @ 2664 fps. Deviation was 19 fps, +9/ -10 fps. This will be my �hunting load�.

Accuracy was good using the Federal primers for two of the three shots. In most cases, two rounds were either in the same, elongated hole or close to it, but in almost all cases, there was one �flier� that was close to one inch away from the other two shots thus making the group not acceptable. 41.3 grains of IMR4895 and the Federal primers produced a 7/16th inch group (.4375-inches) @ 2665 fps.

The following loads were tested using just purchased IMR4895 powder, Winchester 3X fired cases and Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip bullets. All cases trimmed to 1.865 inches. Average range temperature during test = 80� to 85�.
Powder load:
40.3 grs.= 2591 fps (Win.primers) - 2592 fps (Fed. primers)
40.5 grs.= 2587 fps (Win.primers) - 2604 fps (Fed. primers)
40.7 grs.= 2639 fps (Win.primers) - 2626 fps (Fed. primers)
40.9 grs.= 2645 fps (Win.primers) - 2628 fps (Fed. primers)
41.1 grs.= 2647 fps (Win.primers) - 2638 fps (Fed. primers)
41.3 grs.= 2660 fps (Win.primers) - 2665 fps (Fed. primers)
41.5 grs.= 2664 fps (Win.primers) - 2673 fps (Fed. primers)


CONCLUSION: A load of 41.5 grains of IMR4895 (purchased 6/02), a Winchester Standard Large Rifle Primer, Winchester brass and a Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip boat-tailed bullet seated to maximum overall length gives the best accuracy & close to the highest velocity in my Savage Model 99 rifle with its 24-inch barrel. This is a high-pressure load that is shown as a �maximum load� in my Lyman Reloading Manual, but this load is not dangerously high. However, this is a �max load� using the IMR4895 purchased in June of 2002, in my opinion.

From my tests, it seems likely that my particular Model 99 Savage rifle is unusually accurate with almost any �load�. At no time was accuracy less than �very good� with any of the loads that were fired in it.

On a later date (than June 24th) during the Summer or early Autumn of 2002, I loaded 50 rounds using IMR3031 powder, a 150 grain Sierra soft point bullet, Winchester primers & cases just for �fun shooting�. I used a powder load of 38.0 grains of IMR3031� half way between the �starting� load (36.0 grains) and �maximum� load (40.0 grains) of IMR3031. This load was quite accurate, but I didn�t chronograph it. I would guess the muzzle velocity was in the 2550-2575 fps range.

I hope this helps you.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron,

Very detailed notes, thsnk you. I'll have to load some up using 4064 for the 300 and the 308's and see what it does. An excuse to shoot.

For the 308's I have its hard to argue with a Nosler Partition and 41 grains or so of 4895. Had very good accuracy from those loads. Just got to get a deer to stand in front of a bullet.

Again, thanks Ron.

Steve

Steve.........

You're welcome, Sir... but one note of which you may not be aware.

It is my understanding that Hodgdon developed their Varget rifle powder specifically FOR the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge which we know as the .308 Winchester.

So if you haven't tried Varget in your .308 Winchester, I recommend you considering "working up" some loads using Varget & standard Winchester & Federal primers.

As concerns IMR4064... I'd be VERY cautious (concerning high pressure) as you approach the maximum load (43.0 grains in my old reloading manual) of IMR4064 in your .300 Savage. It's definitely a "compressed" load... and crushed powder granules tend to yield an erratic, often unreliable burning rate.

In my prevous post wherein I posted my range notes concerning IMR4064, you will note that with EVERY brand of primer tested, there was considerable "flattening" of the primer. Some were worse than others, probably due to a slightly softer metal compound used in the primer's "face", but ALL of the primers showed "high pressure signs" at the 43.0 grain powder load due to the consistent FLATTENING of the primers.

Of course, in your rifle, the results may be different, but generally, with the exception of "soft" primers, flattened primers indicate chamber pressures that may be in excess of 63,000 psi (approx. 52,900 CUP) which is the top operating pressures found in most magnum cartridges (up to 65,000+ psi) and a few modern non-magnum cartridges like the .308 Winchester.

Good shooting...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.