Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 416 Rigby vs 375 H&H

Is there enough of a difference to step up if cape buff/brown bear are going to be the largest animal sought?

If yes can the Rigby be reloaded easily? I would hate to get into paying over $5 for a shell.

Thanks for sharing.

375 will work for either

I can't comment about the bear, but regarding the Buff, either calibre will do the job, but if you can shoot the 416 comfortably and competantly, then the 416 will do the job better than the 375. Especially on a frontal chest shot, where that big dewlap soaks up an awful lot of energy. I've seen that shot taken numerous times with both calibres and the difference in shot reaction between the two calibres is dramatic.

the 416 is a big step up from the 375 (on both ends). if you can handle it, yes it is better.

it's also easy to load for. you'll have to suck it up and buy Norma brass at gold prices and you'll go through a pound of powder per sitting but dies are readily available and it's straightforward.

it can also be loaded from 375 H&H recoil to 416 Wby recoil so you have a lot of leeway there too.

For Cape buffalo, I'd rather use the 416 Rem. Mag. that either the 416 Rigby or 375 H&H. As fas as I'm concerned it's a much more sensible option that either one of them.

You can have a 416 Remington rifle that is the same size and weight as a 375 H&H and with the same magazine capacity, yet delievers 416 Rigby ballistics and kicks significantly less due to the fact that it burns 25% less powder.

It's the best of all worlds............

AD

Thanks to all for very insightful information.

Perhaps my qustion was not straightforward enough. I have the 375 H&H and just trying to rationaize NEED for a bigger thumper in my arsenal with no desire to go above a 416 class.

It would just seem to me that if you need to step up, you might as well go up to .45 caliber or bigger...plenty of great .45 bullets avaliable and the choice of brass is better.

I thought you guys could buy pretty much any calibre brass over there....... Certainly your prices are a hell of a lot cheaper than they are over here in Africa.

AS was stated before, the difference in reaction of a buff is quite a bit more when hit with a 416 of any type than a 375 of any ilk. Simply putting a lot more WHAP onto the target. A better stopper in a bad situation. That said, the recoil is noticably different and since your PH will likely have a stopping rifle for follow up shots and crisis intervention a 375 is a very versatile and useful tool worldwide and is a VERY popular choice among clients (Vs. PH's) hunting any of the big 5. The 45's are more of the same but drop way down in versatility and way up - again - in Recoil and as such are not really as popular with hunters and really should not be, in my opinion.

anything can be had for a price!

Norma brass is the best I've found for the Rigby. I have a bunch for the 470 too. It is pricey stuff compared to run-of-the-mill cases.....

The 416 Rem would be cheaper, I like the lower pressures and the factor of the Rigby though....

I agree with Allen, the 416 Rem is the most practical route, and it comes in a lighter version than the Rigby. Mine have all been on the pre 64 Win action or the 98 Mauser..

The Rigby is a fine old round, but its a waste of a big action IMO...If I had that big action, I'd go wild and build me a 500 something or other. I don't like packing all that extra weight that goes with the 416 Rigby or any of the big case rounds. For a true big bore I'c opt for the 500 Jefferys on a 98 Mauser. but recoil is a factor and the big bore recoil dictates a slow recovery and I think about all those buffalo that die at your feet! that extra shot might be a good thing.

As much as I love the old .375, the 416s are much better, and if you get in a charge situation and you probably will sooner or later if you hunt buffalo long enough, then you will more than appreciate it..

I would like to bring to everyones attention that buffalo are normally killed with 3 to 5 shots average. Those bragging one shot instant kills are flukes, or they are brain and spine shots. In 40 years of hunting and culling buffalo I have had one instant kill with a shoulder shot as I recall.

I am told by some vet. med. boys that a charging buffalo can be killed instantly with a heart shot if the bullet makes contact with the bull the instant his front feet hit the ground as that will flush the brain with a surge of blood that kills him by stroke or something like that. I have witnessed this but I don't know but what the bullet also hit the spine.

I see the .416 as a moderation caliber, not too much recoil, but still has the ability to stop a charge with any animal. The 375 and 458 Lott and up for example are extremes in opposite directions.

If one can handle the weight on long 15 mile walks, can handle the recoil, and shoot the 458 Lott and up as well as he shoots a .223 then that's your best choice. But trash the macho and be honest with yourself or you are making one big mistake. I have to really concentrate with the Lott to shoot it, tell myself the recoil won't kill me etc. and I can shoot it, but I don't want to deal with this in Africa and I shoot the 404 and 416 Rem like I do a 22 L.R..

If you shoot and feel better with a .375 then thats the gun for you, but shoot all the caliber you can.

All that said, one must come to his own conclusion, and live with it. That is what makes a horse race, otherwise we would all still be using the 06!! I chose moderation with the 416 Rem.

I own and love my 416 Rigby but I have to agree 100% with what Allen & Ray had to say and defer to their opinion as mine is VERY limited. I lugged that Rigby around chasing buff and it was heavy and yep, it took three (3) shots, all through the shoulder before he called it quits. If I'm going to tote a big action all day, then I'm packing a 450 which is what I'm having built. Also, Randy Brooks racked up quite a few one shot kills with the 416 and 350gr TSXs on buffalo. Layne Simpson also stipulates the 416 Weatherby @ 2700 fps is the most impressive buff killer he's ever seen. Just have to have the right bullet. The pressure problems with Remingtons were initial batches and have long been resolved. Very pratical caliber indeed. jorge

PS: I sat in a Yugo...once, but that's all it took. Relevance? Like most of my knowledge on a wide range of subjects I gleaned from reading or personal experiences by folks I know & trust.

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge. Very well done.

I had just been lusting over the Rigby on gunbroker and thought I might take a shot at it but I think I will pass and study the Remmie a little longer.

Much depends on exactly what you want. I have both the .416 Rigby in a fancy-wood CZ, and the .416 Rem. Magnum, a custom M70 with Echols Legend McMillan stock. I use the .416 Rigby strictly with iron sights, and scope the .416 Remington. They weigh exactly the same, 9-1/4 pounds each, so the weight of a .416 Rigby depends to some extent on if you scope it. (This is also, by the way, exactly what Harry Selby's .416 Rigby weighs.)

The big reason to choose the Rigby, aside from romance, is pressure. I know several PH's who report very stocky bolt lifts in hot weather from the .416 Remington in factory ammo or equivalent handloads. In most weather it works fine, however. the Rigby never has any such problems.

I have had two 1-shot kills with the Rigby on shoulder-shot buffalo so my experience is a little different than that of others here. I have hunted a little with the .458 Lott but have found the .416's so satisfactory that I don't feel the need for anything bigger. The 416's are a noticeable step up from the .375.

If you want an opinion on whether the .416 Weatherby (or any other round) is the greatest buffalo cartridge ever, I would ask Craig Boddington. He is the only American gun writer who has killed a LOT of buffalo, with a wide variety of cartridges. Most writers have killed maybe half a dozen, but then again anybody who has ever killed one Cape buffalo (or maybe even none) is ready with an opinion on suitable rifles.

John, from what I've seen, if you handload the 416 Rem. Mag. properly, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to have to deal with unreasonable pressures. I use 370 gr. North Fork solid and soft-point loads at just under 2500 fps., and there are no signs of excessive pressures at all, plus I've used those same loads late-season in the Selous (100 + weather) with not so much as the hint of a sticky bolt lift. Even 400 gr. handloads @ 2400 fps. can be put up that are completely trouble-free in hot weather.

Of course, SAMMI-spec pressures on the 416 Rem. Mag. are about the same as those for the 375 H&H, 300 Win. Mag., 300 H&H, all of the Weatherby magnums, 338. Win., 458 Win., 270 Win., 7mm Rem. Mag. (all are commonly-used in Africa), etc..........

Certain batches of Remington factory ammo were indeed way too hot, there's no question about that, but by the same token, during that era (late '90s, '00) Remington was producing certain lots of 375 H&H ammo that were far too hot as well. I had some Remington 375 H&H 300 gr. Swift A-Frame ammo from one lot that gave ejector marks and a sticky bolt lift in 55 degree weather here at home, and that stuff wouldn't have been suitable for any sort of hunting, anywhere.

Quite honestly, I think that certain such batches of factory ammo as well as poor handloading practices have given rise to the excessive-pressures dialogue. Fundamentally, the 416 Rem. Mag. is a pretty straight-up cartridge to work with.

That's been my experience, anyway.............

AD

AD-what do you burn for powder in your 416 Rem and the 370 NF?

Thx

Dober

can't speak for AD , but RL-15 is said to be a sweet choice (similar to it's use in the H&H). Several acquaintances dote heavily upon it.

Thx I use R15 and H4350 in my 375 Wby and am just wondering.

Dober

I use it exclusively in the 375 H&H and have loaded 416 for a friend or two.

I like H4831 for the Rigby.

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the Rigby as having to be built on a large, heavy, bulky rifle. This one goes under 10lbs scoped, and handles like a dream. It holds 4 in the belly, and shoots like a house afire.

The stock was made fairly slim, and it's balance dictates that it carries lighter than the scale would suggest.

When you add the fact that I can either exceed 416 Rem velocities if I wish, or match them at much lower pressure, and that the brass is excellent and lasts forever, the Rigby seems a solid choice to me.

The rifle turned out so good that I sold my 416 Rem, as I had no intention of ever picking the Rem over this rifle.

muygrande1
Sorry in misunderstood your question. I had answered the 375 was good.

BUT if you want to JUSTIFY NEED FOR A NEW GUN, then YES you NEED the 416.

just kidding. we all have the NEED once in a while. Heck, I purchased 3 guns in the last two weeks. Stop me before i buy again.................

Cas: Beautiful rifle indeed. I'll also concur that 416 Rigby brass lasts FOREVER. Some of mine are on the 15th loading and just now starting to get loose primer pockets. What kind of action and who is the Gunmaker? jorge

Thanks. That is a Vektor action and the rifle was built by Duane Wiebe.

No wonder it's a Masterpiece. Thanks for sharing it with us. I only hope mine turns out half as nice! jorge

Allen,

I suspect you're right about the pressure problems with the .416 Remington, but am merely reporting what I have heard from several PH's, and not just during certain periods, but recently. I have no reason to doubt them, and they have no reason to tell tales.

I suspect one reason for the occasional problems with the .416 Remington is the standad American tendency toward hot handloads. But the fact remains that unless you try to turn the .416 Rigby into a .416 Weatherby, it will never, ever show any pressure problems, even in 120-degree weather.

As I said, I own rifles chambered in both cartridges and like them both a lot--and the .416 Remington is my second in the chambering. My post was merely a statement of fact. The .416 Remington is a fine round, and one I have found quite easy to load, but any potential user should be aware of potential problems, especially those that can be easily avoided.

I think the same thing can be said for about any cartridge. Trying to make a 375H&H into a 378Wby or a 30/06 into a 300Wby will get someone in trouble real quick!
I've owned four different 416Rem rifles over the years and fired many hundreds of handloads through them...never once had a stuck case or anything that resembled high pressure. The ammo was used in 100* African heat as well as 35* in Alaska I've always used R15 and checking things as I went along yielded much higher speeds in two of the rifles, but I always loaded to 2400 for hunting ammo. If you keep the speed to 2400fps with 400gr bullets it should be fine in any properly working rifle and no more prone to pressure troubles than a Rigby loaded to the same speed. Yes, I've got one of those too and for me the Remington is the clear winner. A M70 done up by a top gunsmith is just a slimmer, lighter package that carries better for me, and offers the same amount of horsepower.

John,

As noted earlier, all I was reporting was what I had been told in recent years by several (not one or two) PH's. They did not say the same thing about any other cartridge, which is why I did not mention any other cartridge--or the times in my early years of handloading when I stuck cases in rifles. They mentioned the .416 Remington Magnum, period.

Beautiful rifle CAS! Has anyone see buffalo hit with a 375 Weatherby shooting 350g Woodleighs at 2550 fps? It would be a cheap 1/2 step up for me from my 375 H&H (just rechambering).

MD,
So you did. I guess they weren't around when all of the 458's troubles were brewing? And I can't imagine not hearing any horror stories about the 460Wby...seems every PH I've ever met had at least one about that. Or about the PHs using their old cordite loaded ammo for their double rifles and having numerous hang fires and duds? I have witnessed some of that and was glad we were just target shooting! I simply said much of the Rem's pressure troubles can be traced back to some happy handloader/owner that wants to make a 416Wby out of it. If loaded to "spec" it is no more prone to pressure problems than anything else...and obviously nothing is infallible.

I load my 416 Rem Mag to 2600 fps using 350 grain Swift A Frames with Rel 15. I have never had any hint of pressure under any conditions. While we talk of high temps of Africa, I have been out in Redding Ca. with temps of 110+.

Thought I'd share.......

Well, gee, and none of them mentioned the difficulties of getting flintlocks to go off every time, or the guys who blew up rifles when smokeless powder first came on the market and they loaded it in cartridges designed for black only.

And a couple of them mentioned they'd had problems with .416 Remington factory loads, and not years ago either.

MD,
In all seriousness, I have to wonder if they were using old factory ammo that possibly came from a hot batch or two? Or, if like Allen's more recent experience with Rem. 375 ammo, Remington wasn't watching when they made a recent run of 416 ammo? Was it even Remington ammo? Lots of possibilities.

Ray, going on poor memory here but did not AR/Saeed have something (a long while back?) on the order of a .416 Rigby necked down to .375??? IIRC, that was one rompin, stompin buffalo killing machine, up into the hundreds, even. I think he may also have some reloading data for that thing in the "Reloading" section of the AR site but not too sure about that.

If so and even though a wildcat, that would seem to be the best of both worlds for purposes of this discussion.

Old Toot,
From what I've gleened reading on AR, Saeed's caliber is a .375/404. Today that's a .375 Ultra-mag, more or less.

John,

Actually, you have inspired me. I'm going to load up some different .416 Remington ammo with various powders and bullets, and gather as much factory ammo as possible (I might still have some of the original Remington stuff from the late 1980's on my over-flowing shelves) and next summer see what can happen. Luckily or unluckily, Montana summers are getting hotter, and we can generally count on a number of July days in the 100-degree range even here in the mountain valleys.

The .458 Winchester problems of yesteryear have been pretty well beaten to death, but since I am still hearing of sticky bolt lifts from professional hunters when using the .416 Remington, I'll just have to see what might be the cause. As Allen pointed out, the SAAMI pressure standards for the round are the same as many others.

Some possilities that have occurred to me are the powder used (some are definitely more sensitive to heat than others, especially some of the ball powders often favored by the factories), and maybe even the bullet. The Swift A-Frame, for instancem prodsuces higher pressures than most other jacketed bullets, because of the pure copper and lead used. The copper is "grabbier" than gilding metal, and the lead bumps up to bore size more easily than lead with a little antimony in it. This combo might cause a problems in a barrel that has some dust or rust in it, due to a little neglect.

In other words, further experimentation is in order.

MD
You might want to try the test I use when loading up ammo to go to a dangerous game PH. I put the rounds on a black piece of metal in the sun for a while and then fire them in fast succesion so that the chamber and barrel are also hot from firing. Simulates (sort of) the ammo sitting in the sun on a dashboard or tailgate or black ammo band on a rifle stock and then being used in a crisis with rapid firing. If this does not get the pressures up I feel confident in providing it to my PH's. As a baseline rule I do not try to push the envelope - at all - in regards to speed or pressure to begin with but that is another topic for another thread Great idea to run this test, maybe the topic of an article in the future??

That's the plan. I'm putting it on the schedule for next summer, and probably with more than one cartridge.

One thing I found in a previous test was that ammo stored in those translucent plastic boxes REALLY heats up in the sun, due to the greenhouse effect. I was finalizing some loads for a double .450/.400 3" a few years ago, and found that my oh-so-carefully regulated handloads did NOT regulate so well after being left in the sun for a few minutes inside the translucent-gray box, even on a 75-degree day. And this was ammo loaded with one of the best-known "temperature-insensitive" powders.

So yeah, I think a feature article for HANDLOADER is in order.

MD,
That is a wonderful idea and I'm glad that our exchange here has prompted you into doing it. I have never personally fired a factory round in any of my 416Rem rifles, as I am an avid handloader and prefer bullets other than what Remington chose to use in this cartridge.
There has to be something that would cause these reports, and an experiment such as this might flush it out. Like I said earlier, I never go past 2400fps for hunting ammo and found that level to be absolutely no problem in any of the rifles I've had. If my experience with African PHs is any indication, I'd guess most of the barrels in question were not cared for to the same degree as most of us hunters would. That alone could cause troubles if the chambers got a bit rough.

Yeah, there are all sorts of factors that could be at work. Some of the PH's I have known have been pretty careless about leaving ammo in the sun, even when the PH in question was relatively sophisticated about rifles and ammo. And some of ammo I've seen handloaded in Africa has also been rather suspect.

And even though many of us have hunted in Africa on 100-degree days, sometimes there are 120-degree days.

Thanks for the idea!

Many African PHs are anything but gun nuts. Some are only fair shots, at best; almost all of them have problems coming up with ammunition of any kind, plus very few of them are handloaders. Of those PHs who do reloader, very few are experts, most don't have good or sufficient reloading equipment (chronographs are REALLY rare), and almost none of them know how to mic cases and otherwise properly evalvuate pressures.

Clients will leave handloaded ammo behind that was probably quite safe it their rifle, but may not be safe in the PH's rifle.

Many (possibly most) PHs are experts at evaluating bullet construction and the performance of various cartridges in terms of killing power, they're astute about scope and binocular performance, and many of them are great FAST shots up close, but gun nuts they typically ain't.

In addition, the odd, hot batch of factory ammo would undoubtedly cause them to blame the cartridge itself, and not that particular lot of ammunition. I suspect that if a young PH got his hands on that too-hot batch of Remington 375 H&H ammo I referred to, he may very well come to beleive that the 375 H&H itself was a problematic cartridge in terms of pressures.

Expert PHs (mostly Americans) like the late George Hoffman and Mark Sullivan, both gun nuts, rifle experts, and handloaders with professional skill, are really, really rare in Africa........

AD

M70G, yup, you are right, it is based on a 404J, not a 416 Rigby. Thanks.

Yeah, I have only run into 2-3 PH's that would be considered really knowledgeable about rifles, handloading, etc., on these forums. Part of the problem is that they just don't have the access to components we do here, and if they do, everything is incredibly expensive. Plus they are normally limited in the number of rifles they can own, so are limited in judging various cartridges and rifles to what clients bring.

Then again, many of them are very practical hunters, who do know a lot about what works among the cartridges and components they can get. I suspect this is the big reason many rounds we would consider way too slow are still popular over there: They work with ordinary bullets.

I started research on this article already. The first step was to find out the pressure specs on the .416 Remington Magnum, since it has been stated earlier in this thread that the SAAMI pressure limit was about the same as for many other rounds frequently used in Africa, such as the Weatherby Magnums, 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06, .300 H&H, .300 Winchester, .338 Winchester Magnum, .375 H&H and .458 Winchester Magnum.

The truth of this depends on how you define "about." Here are the SAAMI maximum average psi ratings for most of the rounds listed above:

7mm Remington Magnum--61,000
.30-06-- 60,000
.300 Win. Magnum------64,000
.338 Win. Magnum------64,000
.375 H&H--------------62,000
.416 Rem. Magnum------65,000
.458 Win. Magnum------62,000

The Weatherby rounds that have been accepted by SAAMI generally have a 65,000 psi rating, but some of the commercial ammo for them is slightly hotter. I could find no psi ratings for the .300 H&H, though it is rated at about 62,000 by CIP (the European ammo governing body), and the American factory standard ballistics of a 180-grain bullet at 2880 fps are well below its potential. Most American .300 Winchester Magnum ammunition is also loaded somewhat below maximum, the reason the standard muzzle velocity for 180-grain bullets is 2960 fps.

So the .416 Remington Magnum has the highest pressure rating of any of the rounds listed, except the Weatherbys, some of which have also exhibited signs of high pressure at high temperatures.

I have also heard that factory .416 Remington ammo has ben reduced somewhat in ballistics since its introduction. I will find out about this in due course as well, as I have some original (1988) 400-grain Swift A-Frame ammo coming, thanks to the generosity of a Campfire member. I'll buy some new stuff and see how it compares.

Wow, I go away for a few days and this has morphed into a very interesting science project. About the only thing I can add is regarding Weatherby factory ammo. On TWO separate occassions, I've had pressure problems with them. One with 180gr Barnes Xs (not TSXs) right before I went to Africa with popped primers and sticky bolts and the other with 7mm and the 139gr Hornadys at 3500 fps! Also, can one of you learned gentlemen confirm or deny that spherical (ball powder is more succeptible than extruded when it comes to hotter temps? Reason being, my best 375 H&H load is with H-414 and 300gr Swift A Frame handloads @ 22560 fps. No problems on two different Safaris in Africa where temps were around 110 at mid-day. Maybe as the ammo get older it cakes? jorge

Heck, Jorge, 22560 fps is too hot for a 30-gr Swift A

How's it going?

Gdv

oops, that IS fast! LOL!. IT's going ok I guess. Just here enjoying my "Twilight Tour" in Pensacola and scheming my next safari after I retire jorge

Congrat's sir on your imminent retirement and while I'm at it, thank very much for your service to our country.

Sorry I can't answer your reloading question but might add I'm "enjoying" (might exhilarating be a better word here?) working the Lott out .

Gdv

yup, 30 years 1 Dec...Appreciate the thanks...from ALL of us! jorge

Yes, thanks and congrats!

In answer to your question, yes, traditional ball powders do tend to be somewhat more temperature-sensitive than many other powders. That said, the Ramshot line of ball powders is much less so, and in some instances as good as such things get right now.

Thanks, (twice ). I guess what I need to do with my 375 loads is just wait until I have a hunt set up and load fresh ammo then, even though I keep all my loaded and reloading stuff in a de-humidified space. I also use H-414 in my 06 and 180gr bullets with great success. jorge

jorge, congrats. May you have more time to hunt!

Jorege, Congratulations and thank you for your service. Thanks can never be expressed enough to our service men and women. Me thinks we'll have to drink a toast in Dallas next month. Looking forward to it.

David Walker

Thanks, David, looking forward to seeing you in Dallas. We're staying at the Hilton Anatole. jorge

Serious gun porn.

BMT

That is some serious gun porn..who put if up for you....win action?

Jorge, L. David Keith and I are staying at the Comfort Inn with the Judge's group of rooms, but we'll definitely meet at Papadeaux's on Friday and at the party on Saturday.

BMT, I must agree.

David

As we get closer to the event gents, I'll PM you guys my cell #. We've been invited (my wife & I) as guests of the Dallas Club at their dinner Sat night but we'll be there Friday. Hawk1, yes a the ripe old age of 53, I'll be able to hunt more, but now I'll have to go out and get a real job to supplement my retirement in order to pay for my hunts! jorge

Thank you, Tightloop. The rifle was built by Duane Wiebe on a Vektor Mauser action.

Jorge,

Congratulations on your retirement, and thank you for your service.

Was it you with whom I was having a conversation about great steakhouses? I understand that you will be traveling to Dallas for the DSC. If you have the opportunity, check out Del Frisco's Double Eagle Steakhouse on Spring Valley Road. It is fantastic. It is about a 15 minute cab ride from the Anatole.

Also, Truluck's has very good steaks and great stone crabs, if that is your flavor. That bar isn't bad, either.

CAS: Yes we did discuss steak houses and I'll keep taht one in mind! But fellows my retirement is NEXT December. I still have time maybe for one more "hurrah" in the sand jorge

Well, I take it all back in that case....

OK, I'll reserve the congratulations until next year, but the Thanks stands.

Charley,
Magnificent looking rifle... Still looking for the right Magnum Mauser for my .416 Rigby project. Had settled on GMA, however, the thought of cutting/profiling the feed rails is daunting. May very well bother you for a measurement or two down that road...

Hoping you and yours have a very Merry Christmas...

Regards, Matt Garrett.

Thank you, Matt. I'd be happy to take any measurements you'd require.

Have you looked at Stuart Satterlee's actions? Fantastic equipment. The only downside is that unless he has one on the shelf, you'd be hard pressed to get one from him. I spoke with someone last night who's action is more than a year overdue.

That said, he does have a few actions in stock.

Well then congrats on 29 years of service and thanks anyway. We'll get the retirement covered this time next year. HAHAHA. Either way, look forward to meeting you in Dallas. You gonna bring that 416 RSM along for me to bring home with me? JK. Roger Ferrell is taking all my money working on my .375. I sure would like to have it though.

David

David: I'll have to think on it some more. If I sell it all I would do is turn around and either build or buy another one and spend a lot more money! jorge

jorge,
a custom 340 might be a worthwhile replacement! Or possibly a new Hein or Biesen in 416.

Oj jeez, here we go again John! Might have to give Biesen a shot! jorge

Jorge, I was just kidding anyway. As much as I'd like to have one, right now is not a good time. I'm gonna be in hock all I can stand with Roger on my .375. I'm afraid that and the work I'm gonna have him do on my .257 Roberts will consume my gun funds for the first half of 2008. I plan to book for my '09 buff/pg hunt around May or June, so I've got to be saving for that, at least the deposit and airfare. That is a really nice RSM you've got though, especially knowing the treatment it's been given by the smith.

David

When is your 450 supposed to be finished? Any news on that?

Yep, much wiser my friend to spend the money on hunts! jorge

Gotta get it done while I can. Never know what tomorrow holds over there. The .375H&H will do everything I need it to, but that doesn't mean I'll never own a .416 or .458. After shooting the .375, it's kind of like a teaser for something bigger.

David

Jorge, do more than keep it in mind. I have experienced Del Frisco's. It is something special.

AGW

I like all the guns i own from.222 to 458 Win Mag but my favourite is my CZ550 416 Rigby. Both Jamison and Norma brass last a long time and it really does it all with 350Gr TSX. Off the bench it will almost shoot in the same hole[110Meters] with different loads and for fun shooting at the 300 Meter steel gong i just lean my hip on the range shed post and use a shooting stick and can go through a couple of boxes ammo no problem. It really is a great cartridge.Regards

When it comes to guns and calibers, "I have heard" is something that I dismiss right off the bat..I would rather someone said "I happen to know because it happened to me"

I have used the .416 Remington since its birth, I may have bought one of the first ones and I used a necked up .375 prior to that and I still use a .416 Rem today..I have never seen or had any signs of pressure from it and if one does its because he poked too damn much powder in its belly, end of story and yes even the factory will do that on ocassion, the .458 Win is a prime example of that...If the .416 Rem has pressure then the .375 would have to have the same malady for sure and even more so as its bore is smaller.

My all time favorite caliber of DG is the .404 Jefferys, but its a pain to maintain and everyone I ever had someone else had to have it...but the .416 Rem is more practical and just as good in every way and even better in some ways...

Although 82 or 83 grs of RL-15 is max, a mild load of 79 grs of RL-15 and any decent 400 gr. bullet will kill any animal on the planet earth and do it real well if you stick the bullet in the right spot and if you don't stick in the the right spot then neither will a .577 N.E. That load will get you right at 2400 FPS in a 26" barrel and just a tad less in a shorter barrel..My short tubed (20") got 2340 FPS with that load, and that is plenty good..

I have no problem with the .416 Rigby other than its a waste of that big ole action, I would rebarrel it to a 500 Jefferys were it mine. I have never been able to build a 416 Rigby at under 10 pounds unloaded. More like 11.5 or more with scope,mounts, loaded, and maybe with a sling. I can get a 416 Rem in at several pounds less for whatever that is worth. Its worth a bunch to my 72 year old body!

Well, that is why I am going to run the tests.

The people that have "told me" their experiences are long-time PH's that have no reason to tell tales. I have owned two .416 Remington Mags myself, both custom rifles, the first built in 1989, and have had no problems, but then I never hunted with either in 120-degree temps, and I am not a hot-rodder either.

I guess you have somehow had bad luck with .416 Rigbys. My own CZ, as stated earlier, weighs 9-1/4 without scope (the same as Harry Selby's did) and 10 pounds on the nose with 2.5x Leupold in Talley rings.

I DO love my 416 Rigby and unfortunately I'm "allergic" to anything with the Remington moniker affixed to it (yes I admit it's pathological as the 416 Rem is a very practical round indeed), but I agree with Ray & Allen that in an action that big, I might as well "fleet up" in smack and that's why I'm having my Hein in 450 Dakota built. And yes I admit it, it's pure ego, but hell, that's what's driven me for 28 years in Naval Aviation jorge

The 375 H&H with 350g Woodleighs bears some thought. Shooting a .375 350g Woodleigh at 2400 fps seems like it might be a nice compromise for those of us with 375's already. The 350g Woodleigh protected point has a SD of .356 and a BC of .400 which should be nice for those longer shots as well.

Regards,
Chuck

I saw a very nice 416 Rigby just this last Friday at a local gun shop. It was a CZ African Safari beautiful gun. Next I checked and they did have brass $2.25 each. You know with less powder needed and nearly the same performance the 416 Remington still looks pretty good. I noted that the 416 Rem brass was .64 each. I mean is there really dead and deader? My personal opinion is there is no need for much more gun than a 416 Remington unless it's in your mind.

If I step up from 375 H&H it will most likely be to a 470 Capstick. From what I hear it's an easy modification to a 375 H&H. If I rebarrel with a heavier barrel and add a mercury recoil reducer to keep the balance just right, the recoil shouldn't be too bad. Something about .470 just says Africa to me ...

Unabashed Rigby groupie here. The Remington version does nothing for me though I know it makes sense in the action length and economy department. The Remington just has no soul to me. The Rigby gives you more leeway to stoke it up hot, if that tickles your fancy.

I use H4831SC in mine with 350 gr Barnes X. I tried some test loads with IMR 4831 and 7828 but I wanted the temperature insensitivity of the Hodgdon powder as I was developing loads at -30C to use at +30C. Over there is not the time to find out that your handload is great for polar bears but bites the big one for use in Africa.

Muledeer - did you ever carry out the pressure tests on the .416 Remington that you talked about doing here?

It's nice to reread an old thread! I sure do miss Allen Day!

Ya, here we are, nine years later. Cool.

Guy

Someone should resurrect Allen's posts and put a "sticky" on it.

postoak,

Yes, I did the "warm weather" experiments with .416 Remington factory ammo.

Through a reader, I obtained a box of ammo from the early 1990's (the cartridge was announced in 1988, loaded with 400-grain Swift A-Frames. I waited for a 95-degree day in August, about as hot as it gets in this part of Montana. After shooting some of the ammo at 95 degrees, I "green-housed" three rounds in a clear Ziplock bag with a small thermometer, placing the bag on the bench in the open sun until the thermometer read 110 degrees. There was no discernible difference in velocity, and the average chronographed muzzle velocity 15 feet from the muzzle was 2459 fps.

There also weren't any signs of excessive pressure. The rifle was a Model 70 Classic with a 23" Lilja stainless barrel, and the bolt opened easily after each shot.

A couple months later I obtained a box of new Remington factory ammo, also with the 400-grain A-Frame, and shot it on a 50-degree day, typical of what might be expected in Africa on a cool morning during a buffalo hunt. I had some ammo left from the "old" box as well, so shot both for a comparison. The new ammo averaged 2392 fps and the old 2450 fps, so Remington may (or may not) have reduced the pressure a little from the early days of the round. Statistically 58 fps isn't that big a difference.

But the main point was that there wasn't any trouble encountered with the old ammo in hot weather. Now, it wasn't first-year production ammo, and my rifle may have had a somewhat smoother chamber than a typical factory rifle. But that's what happened.

Thanks for responding JB, good info.

For the sport hunter the extreme temperatures aren't a factor as we do most of our hunting in Africa when the temps are very moderate. On my three trips, temps varied from 50 degrees fahrenheit up to about 85 degrees. That's why if I ever get a .416 it will be the Remington variety instead of the Rigby.

I thought .416Rem pressure issue was a myth that came about due to Remington 700 Safaris
breaking weak extractors, but mistakenly blaming the cartridge. - Model 700 Safaris in .375H&H
have also suffered the same broken extractor problem.

I was asked to make the tests by the editor of a major magazine, while doing an article on the effect of heat and cold on rifle ammunition. So I did, partly because he thought we should try some early factory ammo, because of all the stories about "hot" lots.

Some very early ammo may have been pretty warm. The sample I tried wasn't first-year production, and still resulted in higher muzzle velocity than more recent ammo. It was also well above the factory listed 2400 fps from a 24" barrel, despite my test rifle's 23" barrel.

As I recall, part of the "problem" with broken extractors on .416 700's was traced to poor rifle maintenance, resulting in dirty and/or pitted chambers, and bolt-faces loaded with brass particles. A long-time gunsmith I know has also found this to be a problem with 700's: The vast majority of the broken extractors he's replaced have been on rifles that haven't been cared for very well.

Ross Seyfried used a 700 in .416 Remington Magnum for several years when working as a PH in Africa. He had no problems, but did maintain his rifle carefully.

Mule Deer:

Do your test notes reflect what the SD and ES was for the .416 Remington loads you tested?

Was their any evidence that the compressed charges attempted to "push" the bullets forward from where they were originally seated in the case?

Was there any evidence of powder clumping in the manner of early .458 Win loads?

Just curious.

Thanks.

WinM70,

The extreme spread for 10 rounds of the older was 33 fps, considerably less than the newer ammo's 58 fps.

I broke down one round of the older ammo, and while it was loaded with a spherical powder there wasn't any apparent compression, much less any sign of clumping. Apparently they learned a lesson from the .458 Winchester.

Interesting.

Thanks.