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Ray: I'm with you or with anybody that is taken out of context or misquoted, but one of the benefits touted with Super Premiums is the theory one can go down in weight and still achieve or better penetration over a conventional bullet. I'd be willing to wager that say a 450gr TSX at say 2300 fps will handily out penetrate a 500gr Woodleigh at 2100. Thoughts? jorge


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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
With modern powders it is no trick to get 2250 fps with 450 grain bullets or 2100 with 500 grain bullets without excessive pressures or excessive powder compression. Personally, I think there is no need for the Lott.


If you could buy a .22 short-only rifle or a .22 in which you could shoot both long rifles as well as the 22 short you would choose to buy the former and claim there is no need for the latter? It seems that claiming the opposite is the more rational. Just because better powders now make the 458 adequate to good doesn't make the Lott which can be a "458 Win" at lower pressures or a Lott (more) at 200-250 fps faster and shoot the Win version to boot less desirable. Plus rifles are of the same action length obviously and Weight.

The reason the Lott came into being was disappointment in the Win's performance which has now been improved. That improvement doesn't make the Lott redundant; it also makes it better.

I'll still take a .22 that will shoot the long rifle too and substitute the short if conditions warrant.

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are you sure the Lott and the Winnie use the same action...I'm not sure they do.

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The 458 Win could be made a shorter action perhaps but the fact that in many present makes and models chambered for the Win cartridge all it takes to convert to a Lott is rechambering; I assume this shows that their magazines-the Win's-can handle the Lott too.

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You can convert a standard magnum action to the Lott by altering the magazine box and machining the underside of the rails; the conversion is similar to that done to convert a standard length action to the 375 H&H.

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Yea, the 458 Win usually is made in a standard magnum action.

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Originally Posted by goodnews
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
With modern powders it is no trick to get 2250 fps with 450 grain bullets or 2100 with 500 grain bullets without excessive pressures or excessive powder compression. Personally, I think there is no need for the Lott.


If you could buy a .22 short-only rifle or a .22 in which you could shoot both long rifles as well as the 22 short you would choose to buy the former and claim there is no need for the latter? It seems that claiming the opposite is the more rational. Just because better powders now make the 458 adequate to good doesn't make the Lott which can be a "458 Win" at lower pressures or a Lott (more) at 200-250 fps faster and shoot the Win version to boot less desirable. Plus rifles are of the same action length obviously and Weight.

The reason the Lott came into being was disappointment in the Win's performance which has now been improved. That improvement doesn't make the Lott redundant; it also makes it better.

I'll still take a .22 that will shoot the long rifle too and substitute the short if conditions warrant.

Gdv


The Lott doesn't add 200-300fps. More like 100-150. If you doubt this, take a look at the Hornaday reloading manual. 2150fps is no big deal and 2200 and more is possible from the 458wm - all while using "book" loads and all thanks to today's powders.

This 100-150fps step up is significant though, imo. But it comes at a big price in recoil. Also, most Lotts are on magnum length actions, many 458wm are on standard length actions, again, not a big deal. Reliability of feeding with a 458wm in a Lott magazine is a question, the too long box can cause alignment and pick up issues. And the 458wm is ubiquitous, I have barrowed ammo in the field in Africa; the Lott may get there but it isn't there yet. You can make a light 458wm and live with it, but for the same recoil or even tolerable (for me), the Lott will have to weigh quite a bit more. More isn't always better. The 22 long rifle doesn't recoil meaningfully more than the 22 short, unlike the relationship between the Lott and the WM.

In my opinion, the Lott is unnessecary since the 458wm gives all of the penetration that is needed, and some, for elephants, so long as you use a flat nose 450gr solid like the former North Fork or the GS Custom. If you need to use round nose solids, then the Lott is going to make up for the shortcomings of round nose penetration.

I have both, btw. But I hunt with the 458wm (and flat nose North Fork 450gr solids.)

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My .22 analogy might not have been the most representative of all aspects of the relationship it's true. While I've not had a 458 Win, CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD claims a Lott can get 2300 fps in a 22 inch barrel with a 500-gr bullet as mine does fairly easy. I shoot mine standing with good eye and ear protection and a shoulder pad all of which makes recoil tolerable with full loads out of my 9.5 lb rifle. Not having shot the Win, I'd like to get some full house loads for comparison, both for recoil and feeding issues if there are any.

Any appraisal of two cartridges like this in the same class both of which are effective on the intended game becomes much tinted by windows of experience the shooter/hunter has had, and the successes or failures too whether the cartridges/bullets fault or not.

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I also find that the 450 grain bullets recoil noticeably less than 500 grain bullets. Also the North Fork 450 grain solids are a little more accurate than 450 TSX, 450 Barnes solids, or 500 grain Barnes solids. The Barnes solids have a pretty good flat meplat themselves, though not quite as flat as the North Forks. The 450 TSXs are "spitzers" (kind of fat spitzers). Perhaps because of this, they shoot about 1" higher at 100 yards than the 450 North Fork solids, though both chronograph the same.


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Originally Posted by goodnews

My .22 analogy might not have been the most representative of all aspects of the relationship it's true. While I've not had a 458 Win, CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD claims a Lott can get 2300 fps in a 22 inch barrel with a 500-gr bullet as mine does fairly easy. I shoot mine standing with good eye and ear protection and a shoulder pad all of which makes recoil tolerable with full loads out of my 9.5 lb rifle. Not having shot the Win, I'd like to get some full house loads for comparison, both for recoil and feeding issues if there are any.

Any appraisal of two cartridges like this in the same class both of which are effective on the intended game becomes much tinted by windows of experience the shooter/hunter has had, and the successes or failures too whether the cartridges/bullets fault or not.


IIRC, the Hornaday manual shows 2250fps with the 458wm, their steel jacketed solid, AA2230 and a 24" barrel. I load mine to 2145fps with 500 grainers because it is a double rifle and that is as fast as I can get it to shoot to regulation. Hornaday doesn't show much improvement with the Lott. No matter how you slice it, there ain't that much improvement, at least while staying within "book", ie pressure tested, loads. Hats off to powder munufacturers for making the 458wm what it was always suposed to be - but wasn't in the early years.

I would like a 9 1/2lb 458wm but I had my Lott built to 10lbs. 10lbs because that was what I'm willing to carry and you carry alot more than shoot. And I don't need to shoot 500 grainers at 2300fps to practice with. (But do need to shoot full house loads out of the double to practice with since they are needed to make the rifle shoot well. I have a 350 grain load that shoots to regulation but there is no percievable recoil reduction.)

And you right it is like arguing whether blonds or brunettes are more fun.

Rather than take the added recoil of shooting 500 grains at 2300fps I would choose 570 grains at 2150fps, aka the 500NE. More stopping power, better for elephants, plenty and some for buff. Alternatively, if I were going to go hunting with the Lott, I would really consider the 550gr Woodleighs, which have an excellent reputation for use on elephants when shot out of the Lott at 2150fps. They are a no go in the WM, simply not enough case capacity to make them perform. A 458wm with 500's loaded to an anemic 2050fps is more than sufficient for buff, and I killed three with that load before finding the right load with AA2230 to shoot well at 2145fps. 2050fps with the 500's is enough for elephants too, but barely imo.

FWIW, I find no dicernable recoil difference between the 450's at 2200fps and the 500's at 2145fps. Perhaps because I use different powders for the different weights. Also FWIW, the North Forks are much more accurate than the Woodleighs, but the Woodleighs are plenty accurate enough. I'm sure that GS Custom copper 450gr flat nose solids would perform similarly, though I haven't yet tried them.

JPK

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I realize that on any buff or ele hunt one carries much more than he shoots and perhaps in quite warm weather too. Not intending to throw stones at the Win, My rational for the Lott, a case only about .3" longer than the Win, was to boot a 450-500-grainer at 2150-2200fps which is what the Win can do at full throttle, but do it easily and at lower pressures. As you know of the bucket load of English, big bore Epress or Nitro loads, very few deviate much from this weight bullet and velocity range. It is a proven formula over the history of recent DG hunting in Africa.

That you can shoot the Win is an added, not insignificant bonus, not to mention the flexibility (as the Win has) in handloading.

That's all.

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JPK, I think you have a better understanding of the 458 Win. Mag. than anyone I've ever read the posts of on these forums. Based on the way lighter 370 gr. North Fork solids & softs have worked for me in the 416 Rem. Mag., I'd feel totally confident with the lighter North Fork .458 bullets out of the 458 Win. Mag. as well. SOMEONE of time and resource needs to pick up that bullet line and then hire Mike Brady to run the production side for a while until those ropes are learned.

The 458 Lott's a fine and versatile chambering, especially since you can shoot regular 458 Win. Mag. ammo in a pinch. The biggest problem with the Lott is that many gunsmiths do not know how to properly rework the receiver and magazine system to optimize magazine capacity, perfect feeding, and efficient reloading, plus many of the magazine boxes are made of very poor steel that gets badly battered from bullet noses (especially solids) under recoil. Rifles like the Ruger Magnum are just-plain too heavy, and some of the imported rifles are too crudely built.......

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[Linked Image]

Roger Ferrell is one. This is an MRC barrelled action in 458 Lott, completely reworked.

Apologies, if this seems to be hijacking the thread but it seems pertinent to the 458 Win discussion.

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Roger has a fine reputation, and I think your 458 Lott is a very cool rifle......

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Goodnews
What kind of stock is that?

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McMillan Supreme.

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Originally Posted by goodnews

I realize that on any buff or ele hunt one carries much more than he shoots and perhaps in quite warm weather too. Not intending to throw stones at the Win, My rational for the Lott, a case only about .3" longer than the Win, was to boot a 450-500-grainer at 2150-2200fps which is what the Win can do at full throttle, but do it easily and at lower pressures. As you know of the bucket load of English, big bore Epress or Nitro loads, very few deviate much from this weight bullet and velocity range. It is a proven formula over the history of recent DG hunting in Africa.

That you can shoot the Win is an added, not insignificant bonus, not to mention the flexibility (as the Win has) in handloading.

That's all.

Gdv


I surely don't disagree except that the 458wm isn't running near full throttle at 2150fps (and do try the WM in your Lott before you have to rely on them feeding.) I'll note that I've had no temp sensativity issues with either H4895, which is an Aussie Defense Force powder specifically designed for temp insensitivity, or with AA2230, even in 115* heat in the Zambezi Valley in October.

The century plus bench mark and stalwart 450 NE has nominal performance numbers of 2150fps from the 3 1/4" and 2175fps from the No2 version, both with 28" barrels. Few 450NE rifles match this nominal performance. Both of these rounds used the 480 grain round nose solids. The 458wm, or the Lott for that matter, exceeds the "in the field" performance of the 450NE's with loads in the 2100fps range and 500 grain solids. And the 450 grain flat nose solids out perform the 500 round noses by quite a bit.

Either modern cartridge out performs the benchmark.

So, are blonds or brunettes more fun?

BTW, my Lott is built on an MRC action as well, but with a Kreiger 23" barrel and a nice English walnut stock. The magazine is modified to accept 4 down rather than 3 as well. And it is set up specifically to feed my 458wm loads too.

JPK

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Both have their cheerleaders no doubt; I'd like to see a pic of your Lott. I prefer wood myself.

It is a pretty unusual situation that a rifle chambered for a certain cartridge can also accomodate another successful cartridge and one that is probably as ubiquitous in Africa as any.

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I am way behind on photos of my rifles. I recently picked up another really nice double rifle in another unpopular double rifle cartridge, the 375H&H. It is being "converted" to left hand now, with the cheekpiece removed, triggers twisted... Plus hopefully Joe Smithson QD scope mounts and bases added. I failed to get photos before it went to the shop... Likewise no photos of the Lott, or a new 257 Roberts, also on an MRC action... But I'm due out to the gunsmith soon so I'll get them soonest possible and then I'll open a new thread. The Lott and my 375 bolt rifle and the 257R are all there to get the radius of the grip straightened out. I've become a big fan of more open grips.

JPK

BTW, I thought of another pair of cartridges where the "standard" performer and benchmark works in the higher performance cartridge's chamber and the standard round is ubiqitous in Africa, "just in case." This pair consist of the 375H&H and the 375 Weatherby. Case length the same, just taper and shoulder different. Of course if you shoot a 458wm in a Lott you still have 458wm brass and if you shoot an H&H in a Weatherby you end up with Weatherby brass, but in a pinch, who cares?

I have found that a 458wm and a 375H&H are a great pair of cartridges for two rifles to take to Africa. Use the 458wm for the big stuff and the 375H&H for all else, knowing that if it comes to it you can do the whole trip with the 375H&H.

The fellow who travels with a pair of rifle in 458 Lott and 375 Weatherby is at least as well set up with even more redundancy and flexibility.

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Right. 300 H&H in a Wby chamber too; not that helps much as the H&H is probably much less common than the Wby version. 375 H&H in a 375 Mashburn chamber too but that's neither here nor there.

Gdv

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