Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 375 H&H vs 9.3 x 62

Kevin Robertson, African large game veterinarian and author of The Perfect Shot, writes a comparison between the 375 H&H and the 9.3 x 62 in the March 2004 The Accurate Rifle.

The 9.3 x 62 is basically a 30-06 necked up to 0.366� diameter and traditionally shoots a 286 grain bullet � making it a cousin of the 35 Whelen. It is considered a stand-by by Africans of German descent. It has always been available in economical Mauser rifles, doesn�t recoil too much, and ammo is cheap. Can be built on nearly any Mauser action.

Robertson maintains that the 375 H&H has a very mixed reputation on large game in Africa. At short range the 375 frequently fails to penetrate on game like cape buffalo but then at longer ranges over-penetrates and wounds buffalo on the far side of the intended buffalo. He lays much of the blame on too tight a rifling twist rate. Using Greenhill�s formula or any modern version of it, the 375 could use as slow as a 15-inch twist. The 458s use a 14-inch or 16-inch twist. But nearly all factory 375 H&H use a 12-inch twist.

Robertson goes into quite a bit of mathematical detail on the effects of this over-spin. Robertson also uses a lot of hunting examples. As both a veterinarian and a licensed PH, he has taken over 650 buffalo with the 9.3 x 62 and nearly as many with the 375. And a lot more with the bigger forty and fifty calibers.

He says with the high bullet spin at close range the 375 bullet is still yawing (not stabilized) and cannot penetrate straight for the first twenty paces. At longer ranges when the bullet has stabilized, it over-penetrates on broadside shots that miss bone. This gives the PH fits when he is advising the client on which bullet � solid or soft � to have in the chamber and magazine as one does not know which situation will present itself the next minute and the client is not skilled enough to switch quickly, quietly from one bullet to another.

Robertson routinely downloads the 375 H&H from its factory velocities of 2,550+ to about 2,300 fps using conventional 300-grain bullets. He sometimes loads heavier 380 grain bullets (available in Africa) to factory pressures to get 2,200 to 2,300 fps. At the lower velocity, the spin rate of the bullet slows to something more like the 404 Jeffery, 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag, 470 Nitro Express, etc.

The conventional 375 H&H 300-grain bullet has a low sectional density compared to other African calibers. The 458-500 has a SD of 0.341. The 416 Rigby�s 400-grainer has a SD of 0.338. The 30-06 with 220-grainers has a SD of 0.331. The 6.5 x 55 Swede with its original 160-grain bullet has a SD of 0.327.

By comparison, the 375 H&H 300-grainer has a SD of only 0.305. It would need a bullet of at least 340 grains to give it a similar SD as these other reliable African calibers.

Robertson recommends that American ammo producers introduce a heavier bullet for the 375 to lower velocities. Or offer lower velocities with the 300-grainer which would have the additional advantage of lower recoil for the American going to Africa.

Thoughts ?

Personally, I think Robertson has overworked the entire 375 H&H formula, and I don't buy everything that he has to say on this subject. Many other experienced PHs don't agree with him either, and neither does the science of ballistics for that matter. I can see loading good 350 gr. bullets for buffalo (etc) if you want to, provided you load them to the potential of the cartridge, but I don't see any point in going out of your way to deliberately load 300 gr. bullets to 2300 fps. That's reverse-physics, and for me, that dog just don't hunt.

Varying shot distances can throw his numbers way off in the first place, plus there are other variables to consider which tend to heavily cloud the absoluteness of the concept he's trying to sell.

The mixed reviews on the performance of the 375 H&H on buffalo are mostly tied to bullet performance and shot-placement, pure and simple. I'm working on 300 gr. 375 H&H loads right now for buffalo, hippo, etc, and you can be sure that I'll be loading them to 2500 fps. or better, and I have no intention of going about it any other way.

Personally, I can see a 9.3x62 for someone who is recoil-sensitive, yet wants a big bullet. I don't see it was a buffalo rifle (even if legal, which I don't think it is), but it should work extremely well on all plainsgame, plus leopard.

But if someone can shoot a 375 H&H well and intends to hunt buffalo and lion in addition to plainsgame and is astute enough to load quality projectiles at standard, classic, proven 375 H&H velocities, there's no way in the world that I'd recommend or choose a 9.3x62 over the Three-Six-Bits.

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The 9.3x62 is and has been used by many in Southern Africa on Buff. Its legal in Zimbabwe and most of South Africa (except Natal from memory).

Experienced guys like Ganyana (Zim) regularly use it for their own personal hunting and seem to get by with it.

One advantage with it is it can be built in a lightweight rig and still be reasonable to shoot - unlike the 375.

I have read time & time again from those who have used both that there is little practical difference in percieved killing power between the 2 calibers.

They are both excellent calibers but neither of them are charge stoppers.

IMO if one wants to move up significantly from a 9.3, go to the 378 Weatherby or a 416.

It would be interesting to know if Kevin Roberton's obesrvations/thinking has changed when dealing with projectiles such as TSXs and North Folks etc - at higher velocities.

This whole thing is quite whacky, most 375's are 1 in 12, they have absolutely never had any problems, and have worked flawlessly since John Taylor laid flat over 3000 and Mike Lagrange probably even more then that. So why worry about the cartridge when it's the barrel twist he's worried about. If somebody buys a 375HH with other then the 1:12 then they should load accordingly.

I like his book, his background, his creadibility but this twist rate is simply whacky. I also don't have the in depth background and experience to have a strong debate with Kevin. He would chew me up and spit me out on most of these topics. I simply dissagree with this bullet yaw and twist rate issue.

I used my 375HH with 270 Swift Aframes and Hornady 270 cup and core bullets when I passsed the PH Academy course. We had mandatory shooting at 30 feet. , every single hole in that target looked like a paper punch, there was simply no yaw.

By the same token I've shot a 7mm Rem Mag at 25 yards when struggling to develop 175 grain loads. Those bullets were yawing as the paper showed out of round holes, Just as another rifle, a Weatherby rifle with 220 grain bullets would not shoot perfect holes at 30 yards with the 1:12 twist. It's easy enough to see if your bullets are not stable just shoot through a cardboard backed target. See for yourself.

I'm with Allen here that the 375HH is well above the 9.3 for performance. I've posted here in the past a photo of an Eland bull shot with the 9.3 using a 286 grain northfork, and the 30/06 shooting a 165TSX shot at the same distance more or less, and with the points of entry close as well. The Photo shows both bullets under the skin on the off side, the Northfork broke ribs, the TSX went through the offside scapula.

This is the most visual example I can think of to compare the 9.3 to anything else. It's the smallest of samples.....one....... but it's also as close to identical shots into the same animal as possible.

In this case the 9.3 was no better then the 30/06. Who would compare the 30/06 to the 375HH?


The upper bullet under the skin is the TSX the lower bulge is from the north fork

Kevin has a lot of knowledge and expertise in many fields but is still learning as far as ballistics go. He also has not killed over 600 buffalo with his 9.3x62. He purchased the rifle used from a PH who had used it to kill over 600 buffalo - so while the rifle may have 600 + buffalo to its name - it was not Kevin shooting them. Either way, the round obviously works for a hunter who can shoot it.

As for heavier bullets in the 375. I hold with what Ganyana told me at the last SCI show -- the 375 simply needs a good bullet, rather than a heavier one.

I have no dog in the Kevin Robertson discussion (other than running some of his articles in Successful hunter), but I don't think the comparison of the 9.3 and .30-06 loads demonstrates much.

First, different bullets sre used. The TSX is probably the deepest penetrating expanding bullet on the market. The North Fork, good bullet that it is, is not. Mike Brady told me himself that he designed it to expand and penetrate somewhere between the Woodleigh and the TSX. (The Woodleigh is one of the widest-expanding bullets made.) This is exactly where the North Fork showed up in penetration tests, both by Mike and others, before he distcontinued making it for general sale.

Second, there is not as vast a difference in penetration in different calibers as many people think, when bullets of the same approximate construction and sectional density are used. This is not exactly new information. Finn Aagaard did a test many years ago, using wet newsprint, and while several bullets were used, most were Nosler Partitions, as they were the most commonly available "premium" at the time. Cartridges included the .30-06, .300 Winchester Magnum. .338, .375 and .458 (if I remember correctly), though obviously the .458 could not be tested with Partitions back then. The main point is that ALL the heavier Partitions (200 .30, 250 .338, 300 .375) penetrated within 10% of each other, to 20-22" in the wet paper, no matter the cartridge. Instead of overall deeper penetration, the advantage of a heavier bullet is in its abilty to penetrate tougher stuff (whether bone or muscle) and still remain on course and get inside.

Third, the ability to penetrate hide is quite variable. I have seen bison chests penetrated completely by a 130-grain TSX from a .270, and 300-grain .375 Nosler Partitions stopped under the hide (even though retained weight was 88%).

I have shot quite a few animals with both the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H. No, the 9.3x62 isn't a .375, but it comes darn close, especially when handloaded with modern powders. In a 24" barrel it is no great trick to get a 286-grain bullet to 2500 fps or so at 60,000 psi. This is extremely close to the standard .375 300-grain factory load at 2530 fps. Of course, the .375 can also be steamed up a little over factiory pressures, but not nearly as much as the 9.3x62, because the 9.3's factory loads operate at much lower pressure.

I do know quite a few other hunters other than Kevin who have used the 9.3x62 (and 9.3x74R) on not just Cape buffalo but elephant, and to a man they regard the 9.3's just as highly as the .375. One of these is a PH in Tanzania who uses it (illegally) there, and with standard African factory loads. The 9.3's are not, however, as generally legal as the .375 in various African countries.

MD, your comments on hide issues are well known by me. I've seen lots of Swift Aframes under the skin of Zebra and Wildebeest from a 375HH, and have had that same 165gr TSX exit on nearly identical shots.

So when folks talk about cartridges the only way to keep the conversation Apples and Apples is when all the variables are the same. That means the same bullets as well. One reason why the whole thoery of SD is out the window today when comparing a high SD bullet of Cup and core construction to a Lower Monometal constructed bullet.

There is a significant impact reaction difference and the effect a higher velocity 270 grain bullet at 2800fps has on bigger animals then the slower 300 grain bullets. Lower it further to the 9.3 speeds and it's even more dramatic.

I read somewhere that Barnes has gone so far as to suggest that the 270TSX trumps the 300 TSX for penetration with the much higher velocity. This goes exactly along with my thoughts that one should shoot a light for caliber TSX bullet, rather then heavier.

The 375 with 300 grain bullets at around 2600 fps is the gold standard all around African load,and there are just too many dead critters strung over too many decades to think that there is something fundamentally wrong with it. One can still get good results with the same bullets slowed down to 2300fps because it just approximates the long time proven 9.3x62 factory loads.

Loading a 350 grain bullet to maximum velocity would work as well but it certainly isn't mandatory. At any rate,criticism of the 375 in Africa reminds me of criticism of the 30-06 in the U.S. There is just too much practical experience to prove that either round works well on reasonably appropriate game.

But this is not to say that we should stop looking for a better mousetrap. I know that the 30-06 works fine on elk,but I have taken all of mine with other rounds. If a guy with Kevin's experience wants to hunt cape buff with 350 grain bullets in the 375 and is convinced they are a little better,it's about like me hunting deer with my 280 convinced all the while that it's just ever so much better than your 270.


Britt

Jim, a little more detail on the photo of my eland and its bullet "bulges" My northfork was a 250 grain @ 2650 fps. The bull was quartering away from me when I shot at about fifty yards. My rifle is a Husqvarna 7000 that I rebarreled with a shilen 9.3X62 twenty five inches long with a one in twelve twist. As you know, I killed eight plains game animals with it with eight shots....you did, with my blessing, administer the coup de grace to my eland...we earlier agreed not to take a chance on this 2000# critter running for three clicks. For those that haven't had a chance to hunt with JJHACK...sign up! it is a great experience.
jmr

I love his books but I don't buy into his "slower is better" theories. Might have been the case in the past when bullets weren't up to the task (ergo the Weatherby calibers spotty reputation, most notably the 378's) but with today's bullets, especially the TSX, all that theory is "out the window." in fact non other than Randy Brooks recommends the 350 over the 400 in the 416 for the same reasons Jim says. Monometal bullets are long for caliber and unless you fiddle with the twist, stability issues, particularly at closer ranges (higher velocities) ensue.

I'm just a neophyte, but I've shot enough animals, spoken with folks that have taken a Lot of animals and together with what I've read (from credible sources), given a properly constructed bullet, give me all the velocity I can get, hence give me the 375 over the 9.3. Further, the 9.3's popularity has to do with availability. Same goes for the 303 British. That's all they had so that's all they used. jorge

JJ,

We are again pretty much in agreement on this one. I have also found the 9.3x62 with a good 250 (whether North Fork, Nosler AB, TSX, etc.) a very fine choice. This an easily be loaded to 2700 fps, and and I know people who load it to 2800. This is the 9.3x62 equivalent of the 270-grain in the .375, and pretty well does the job on anything up to 2000 pounds as well.

You may have noticed that I ONLY mentioned SD when bullets are of the same construction, not comparing cup-and-core to TSX or whatever.

Most of you guys have a lot more experience than me so I will check out this theory with you.

I see the 9.3x62 as a supersized 06, I wonder if the reason it is so well liked is that it is more user friendly than the average 375? I know that the 375 is no hell raiser when it comes to recoil for most people, but to some it probably pushes their limits a bit (no pun intended).

So, people shoot the lil 9.3 well, so they kill well and so they like it. Kind of like people using a 06 vs say a big 30 or big 33.

I feel that the same could be status would be reached if people would use the 06, 338/06 and the Whelan with big bullets.

Thoughts, comments, concerns...?

I've never run a 9.3x62 on game, I did use the bigger bro 9.3x64 for a while. I can understand the comps between it and the 375 but I can't between the smaller 9.3 and the 375.

Just my meager thoughts.

Make it your best day!

Dober

Kevin's ballistic tests are an ongoing, work in progress. I don't always agree with him on everything but, as detailed and thorough as he is, they certainly deserve serious consideration.


and jorge, Every Supercub driver will tell you that slower IS better.
Except for when you need a "Fast Mover" you need it now.

The original 9.3X62 vs. .375 H&H separation was over simple economics: you could buy a 9.3X62 Mauser in Africa for not a lot of pounds, while the larger, heavier .375 H&H magazine rifles were much more expensive. The 9.3X62 used heavy for caliber bullets at modest velocities which just happened to work very well. Many African locals had 9.3s because it was enough gun.

Kevin is very big on theories, it gives him something to write articles about! This is not all bad because there is usually some nugget of truth to be found for your trouble. Kevin and I wrote for the same publisher for a while, at least back in the days when I first met him. At that time he had written his first book on the strength of killing three Cape buff. He has certainly shot more since.

Back when I was actively working space based surveillance we thought all you airplane drivers were operating "slow walkers". The fast movers are another thing entirely.

jim

Hi mlg.
I am sorry to correct you, but the legal minimum for Buffalo in Zimbabwe is: 9,2mm and 5300 Joules. Though they come very close, I know of no European produced 9,3x62mm cartridge that obtain 5300 joules.
Regards NAN

In discussing the 'x62' as compared to the 375, why is the 'x64' left out? Isn't the 'x64' more closer in power to the 375 then the 'x62'?

Mark,

Probably the big reason the .375 and 9.3x62 keep getting compared is African regulations. In some countries the 9.3x62 or 9.3x64 is the legal minimum, in others the .375. As Finn often pointed out, when the .375 was made the legal minimum in Kenya, the 9.3x62 was "grandfathered" in, for hunters who had long used it.

In equal-weight rifles, the 9.3x62 does kicks noticeably less than the .375, especially with factory loads. The difference is less in 60,000 psi handloads, but still there.

When handloaded the 9.3x62 tops out at around 4000-4200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, the .375 at 4500-4700. The common .375 bullets (270 and 300 grain) are 5% to 8% heavier, and not quite 1/100th of an inch larger in diameter (.366 and .375).

We can call the 9.3x62 a .36/06, but when using heavy bullets in the .30-06 and its wildcats we generally can't get above 2600 fps, and often 2500. As JJ pointed out, a .375 270 at 2800 is something else again. So is a 9.3 250 at 2700+. These are muzzle velocities more like the 180/.30-06 or 200/.338-06, but with 250-270 grain bullets.

(In fact, if you do the math of interior ballistics, the 9.3x62 should be capable of about 98% of the velocity of the .38 Winchester Magnum, with equal-weight bullets. When both are loaded to 60,000 psi, this turns out to be true.)

In the 9.3x62 OR .375 we are basically using 250-300 grain bullets, of similar diameter. Obviously the .375 has an ballistic edge. If we figure this mathematically, it comes out to about the same edge the 7mm Remington Magnum has over the .270 Winchester. There is about the same percentage in bullet weight/velocity/diameter gain.

The advantages of the 9.3x62 (if it has any) are the same as in the .270/7mm Mag comparison: lighter recoil and higher magazine capacity. (Magazine capacity may seem minor, but a couple of the guys I know in Africa mentioned it as a virtue of the 9.3x62. With one in the chamber, you have six rounds in a standard rifle, something not possible in the .375 H&H even with most "drop" magazines.) The 7mm/.375 can drive bullets that are a little heavier a little faster.

As I noted above, I've used both cartridges quite a bit in both North America and Africa, with both lighter-weight bullets in the 2700 fps range and heavier bullets in the 2500 fps range, on animals from 100 to 1500 pounds, at ranges out to 300 yards. I have yet to see a situation where a .375 bullet would have killed an animal and a similar 9.3 bullet wouldn't have. But I have been in situations with bith rounds where a 7mm magnum or a .416 might have been the better choice.

The .375 is no doubt by far the more practical cartridge for Africa, both because of legality and ammo availability. It might even the one to choose even in North America if you only want one "large medium bore," unless of course you're convinced the .338 is just as good (and some people are).

Personally, I really like them both and will continue to use them both, just as I do the .270 and 7mm magnum (and for that matter, the .338).

Hey I guess in relative terms I also flew a "slow walker". Yeah I started in F4s, but most of my career was in the S3B Viking and at 450kts (on a VERY good day) it's definitively a "slow mover"!

Oh, did I mention I have a CZ in 9.3X62 on order
jorge

Guys,

I forgot to mention the lower recoil on the 9.3X62 is very real; Ganyana for example likes it because of the damage in his shooting shoulder from a three-round burst from an AK47 in an ambush during the Rhodesia days.

jim

I own a M70 in .375 H&H and I like it.

The reasons I like the 9.3x62 over the .375 H&H are real simple:
(I'm speaking of the CZ in this regard, which I also like)

1.) Proven medium bore power in a lighter, -'06 sized action.
2.) Six available shots without reloading (5 in mag, one in chamber).

The rest is fodder for reloading bench banter.