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I did say - once - that the accomplishments of my Dad, my relatives and my ancestors was not a source of "pride" for me. I was merely pointing out, that to my way of thinking, "pride" comes out of one's own accomplishments.

I metioned my Dad's EXPERIENCE not as a source of pride - but as the voice of someone who's actual experience in regards to killing grizzlies, usually alone, and without a guide - bore listening to. My Dad did use calibers beyond 40 for grizzlies - but eventually settled on the 30-06, and the pump-action, as being "perfect" - for him.

I wanted to point out also that killing grizzlies is different from being around a lot of them. Heck, if being around game animals is what counts - my experiences with Whitetail deer, within 100 yards of my house, daily, probably trumps the Benoit family's experiences! I chase many of them away from my wife's roses and the cedar hedge every day. Sometimes in numbers that exceed 20 at a time.

But, I think you can see and appreciate the difference between doing that every day - and hunting them the way the Benoit family does. When it comes to hunting them - if the Benoits are talking - I'm listening!

It was that experiential knowledge about killing grizzlies that my Dad had, at length, and that's the reason I mentioned it. Not to brag about it - or as a source of my own pride - but rather as noting the experience of one who should be listened to.

The fact he regarded a short, light 30-06 pump as being his favorite - is, in my opinion, not to be discounted.

Now that he's gone, if I ever do shoot a big grizzly - since I can't have my Dad at my side - I can't think of many people I'd rather have at my side than you, Kutenay.



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Originally Posted by Furprick
i have only faced a griz and her cub once on a narrow trail to clear cut.My friend had a 308 win and i had a 7Rem Mag, this was 19 yrs ago. We were 40-50ft from them when they popped out of the brush, i whispered head shots only as the scope was full of the sow bears head. we waited them out and after some chomping licking the air and standing on tippy toes they went their way. The next season we had 338 winchesters with 250gr bullets and feeling a little better when walking. After thinking about it, i do not rush down a trail at dusk anymore, I leave time to walk slowly and observe my surroundings on the way to the hunting spot. Short , light, big bore, scoped down to 1.5 or 2x, slick functioning rifle is what will see you through these encounters, plus learning not to shoot unless absolutely neccessary as all hell breaks loose when you pull that trigger. A 35 whelen is good for this activity as are the various 9.3's. 375 HH generally need to be modified to foefill this function. Whn on the ground i like a good medium , when traveling from place to place a 3006 is good as well as for November deer hunting as the bears have gone to sleep. Your experience may vary.


Good post,FP!

That is exactly what I had when I had a guy from California and one from the Prairies hunting Elk near White Swan in 1979. A really gorgeous Grizzly came up to within 10 yds. of us, their rifles were in the Suburban and I had my Ruger 77-7mmMag. with 4x Leupy shooting 175 WW PPs in my hands.

These two gents were solid but neither had ever seen a Grizz before, especially that close and the Yank had worked in Yellowstone quite a bit, while the other chap had only hunted deer. The besr was just curious and very calm, but, still, it does tend to make you kinda AWARE, you might say....I never went elk hungting again without one of my .338s and still don't.

Last season, we were in the Chilcotin, about 20K into South Chil. Park., packed in by one of the worst losers I have ever met and there were fresh tracks every morning, all week, at the waterhole about 200 yds. from our camp. I had a matched pair of P-64 .338s and my buddy had his custom ZG-47-9.3sx64 in carefully selected spots at the camp and all was cool.

So, I agree with you, FP, I do exactly what you do and I am quite confident in the .338, 9.3 or .375, any of these will work. It CAN be hard not to just shoot and kill the bear, but, that's not what I consider acceptable, just like killing game and leaving the meat to rot.

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Originally Posted by BCBrian
I did say - once - that the accomplishments of my Dad, my relatives and my ancestors was not a source of "pride" for me. I was merely pointing out, that to my way of thinking, "pride" comes out of one's own accomplishments.

I metioned my Dad's EXPERIENCE not as a source of pride - but as the voice of someone who's actual experience in regards to killing grizzlies, usually alone, and without a guide - bore listening to. My Dad did use calibers beyond 40 for grizzlies - but eventually settled on the 30-06, and the pump-action, as being "perfect" - for him.

I wanted to point out also that killing grizzlies is different from being around a lot of them. Heck, if being around game animals is what counts - my experiences within 100 yards of my house probably trumps the Benoit family's experiences! I chase away many of them away from my wife's roses and the cedar hedge every day. Sometimes in numbers that exceed 20 at a time.

But, I think you can see and appreciate the difference between doing that every day - and hunting them the way the Benoit family does. When it comes to hunting them - if the Benoits are talking - I'm listening!

It was that experiential knowledge about killing grizzlies that my Dad had at length, and that's the reason I mentioned it. Not to brag about it - or as a source of my own pride - but rather the experience of one who should be listened to.

The fact he regarded a short, light 30-06 pump as being his favorite - is, in my opinion, not to be discounted.

Now that he's gone, if I ever do shoot a big grizzly - since i can't have my dad at my side - I can't think of many people I'd rather have at my side than you, Kutenay.




I am truely humbled by that, Brian, and was just trying to point something out here that is important to, IMO, both of us and others as well.

I knew a guy when I started this that shot a lot of West Kootenay Grizzlies with exactly that setup, but, I never have really trusted those rifles with handloads and so have prefered bolt actions, especially CRFs with field-strippable bolts.

I have been asked, quite a number of times, from my early 20s to accompany Grizzly hunters and have done so out of friendship. I am not especially afraid of them, but, I do feel better with the larger rifles. I started with a Browning Safari CRF .30-06 and it was a great rifle, but, this was when the young women were killed in Glacier Park quite close to where I was living solo in the FH Valley and, that winter, Harvey Cardinal was killed and partially devoured out of Fort Nelly; I knew one of the COs who hunted ans shot that bear, a real monster.

I think that refering to family situations is fine, of course I am proud of my relatives who volunteered and bled for Canada in both wars as is every other Canuck with veteran relatives I know or ever have known. I am also proud to be a member of a pioneer family, that was a major factor in my choice to become active in wilderness preservation, etc., in the early '60s when it was NOT cool and it eventually cost me a fine career in the B.C.F.S.....and I would do it again.

Pride that motivates one to excel is not a negative emotion, while a feeling of special status based on ethnicity IS. Have you EVER seen me claim anything other than equality or state that I should be allowed more Elk or Trout because of when my ancestors came here? That is, as we both know, what the real issue is.

Use an .06-220 NP if you prefer, lots of good men have, I would if I did not have these other rifles AND I just enjoy mucking about with many different guns...a very non-PC thing these days!

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Some of you may recall the pictures I posted a couple years ago when my neighbor was charged by Grizzly sow with two cubs, he got one shot off as she came down on him and it entered just above her head and broke her spine, she died after knocking him down. This was a greenhorn to Alaska who had never even seen a bear before and his first encounter was being attacked, he was shooting a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets that he brought with him from down south. My answer to me is either gun mentioned as they are both more than capable of doing the job if you are adapt at using one of them.

The details about this event was he was running his two labs along the treeline in a large cleared LZ the military uses for training, and some guy had some snares along the tree line and had accidentally snout snared a cow mooose which had died, this sow and her cubs were feeding on the cow when he came down the treeline and suprised them.

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Would nobody choose the Marlin 1895G 45-70? Would not a good 400 grain bullet from said gun do the job quite nicely? Personally, I can fire follow-up shots more quickly with a levergun than any bolt-action.

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Neither-------- My 358 Norma w/ 280 Swifts


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There's lots of performance overlap between most of the medium-bore cartridges, and quite honestly, I haven't even seen much significant difference between the 375 H&H and the 338 Win. Mag. as far as terminal results go, either.

I don't doubt that the 9.3x62 is an excellent cartridge, but I've been a 338 Win. Mag. fan for 28 years, and that's the cartridge I do most of my hunting with these days.

The next time I hunt grizzlies, it'll be with a 338 Win., and I won't be staying up nights wondering if it's enough gun, either.........

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i had a marlin lever in 45-70, shortened cartridge case so the canalure of a 350gr speer could be crimped, run these at 1850fps, real stout load. Two reasons why i got rid of it: shots where I hunt can range from 50ft to 400yds if conditions are right so I like a reasonably good stopper as well as one that can range out, most 06 based mediums will drop a bullet 24 or so inches at 400yds, 8-10 inches at 300. being a bolt gut all the life , except I was born smile with an 870 in my hands, I could or wood not spend the required time to become one with the marlin so for that reason I considered it more of a hazard on the short shots and ranging ability precluded long shots.

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There are no flies on the 338Win, it is the prefered round for elk in these parts as g-bear are always present. My cousin has shot elk and g-bear with it, 225 FXB and Now TSX bullets work well. For me i have owned 2 338Wins, shot some moose and bears with the first one, the 2nd was bought because it was SS, couldn't get that one to shoot to my satisfaction so I let it go. What the whole experience taught me was big, fast, and or heavy is not the total answer in downing big game, game bigger than deer. The whole time during this 338 experment i was shooting game with the 35 Whelen. This round with the 250 gr FXB is equal aor better than the 338, I say better as it is easier to place shots well. I remember in 2001 I shot a bull moose, average big in size, guess 1100 lbs, with the 35. It was standing accross a small lake at just over 300yds facing us, my partner says to wait until it turns side ways, I said I can not knock him down with that shot, he needed to be knocked down on the spot as it wood take an hour to get to him,so with the 35 I amied for the point of his nose, the bullet entered center of the chest and was found under the skin near his anus, thats 7 ft of moose, he dropped on the spot and never moved. I wood not try that shot with anything less than a good medium.

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When I was in Zimbabwe the PH handed me the regulations for calibers for each game species. The guide he handed me stated that the smallest caliber to be used on lion, buffalo,etc, was the 9.3 and it must have a muzzle energy of what came to factory specifations for a 9.3x74r, or a 9.3x62. A .338 Winchester exceeds these figures. Long story short: I killed a nice lion with my .338, as I did not have a 9.3 with me. Chronographed 9.3's usually are more than a little off what is written on the box.

I would chose a .338 Winchester everytime. I just happen to favor the .338.

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Originally Posted by albertan
When I was in Zimbabwe the PH handed me the regulations for calibers for each game species. The guide he handed me stated that the smallest caliber to be used on lion, buffalo,etc, was the 9.3 and it must have a muzzle energy of what came to factory specifations for a 9.3x74r, or a 9.3x62. A .338 Winchester exceeds these figures. Long story short: I killed a nice lion with my .338, as I did not have a 9.3 with me. Chronographed 9.3's usually are more than a little off what is written on the box.

I would chose a .338 Winchester everytime. I just happen to favor the .338.
Yeah, I can't see a lion not going down to a .338 Win Mag.

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Here's an interesting "cut and paste" from another thread.

I find it interesting what this professional Alaska Brown Bear guide is going to be using this year. As most people know, the average Alaska Brown bear is a LOT bigger than the average grizzly, and the average grizzly is a lot bigger than the average lion...

From Phil Shemaker - "I am loading up box of 30-06 with 220 Partitions and another with 220 Woodleighs and plan on using one or the other during this spring's bear season in my 30-06 as my back-up piece. In the past, in test media the 220 partitions from my 30-06 penetrate virtually identical to 300 gr partitons from the 375 H&H.

I have killed as many bears with my 30-06 and 200 partitons as I have with the various 375's and while the 375's sometimes (? !) seem to put them down a little faster - the difference is not much, nor as evident, as most people suspect.

I am not suggesting that the 30-06 is an equal to my 458 as a backup rifle - because it certainly is not - but when used by someone who can shoot it the 30-06 with today's best bullets is a perfectly suitable rifle for use on big bears."
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Interesting...


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Originally Posted by BCBrian
Here's an interesting "cut and paste" from another thread.

I find it interesting what this professional Alaska Brown Bear guide is going to be using this year. As most people know, the average Alaska Brown bear is a LOT bigger than the average grizzly, and the average grizzly is a lot bigger than the average lion...

From Phil Shemaker - "I am loading up box of 30-06 with 220 Partitions and another with 220 Woodleighs and plan on using one or the other during this spring's bear season in my 30-06 as my back-up piece. In the past, in test media the 220 partitions from my 30-06 penetrate virtually identical to 300 gr partitons from the 375 H&H.

I have killed as many bears with my 30-06 and 200 partitons as I have with the various 375's and while the 375's sometimes (? !) seem to put them down a little faster - the difference is not much, nor as evident, as most people suspect.

I am not suggesting that the 30-06 is an equal to my 458 as a backup rifle - because it certainly is not - but when used by someone who can shoot it the 30-06 with today's best bullets is a perfectly suitable rifle for use on big bears."
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Interesting...
Hard to disagree with that. The .30-06 with 220s is an amazing stopper. With modern bullets, even better. It's the premier versatile big game round.

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Quote
when used by someone who can shoot it


You can't sum it up any better than that.

I believe the old prize fighting saying, "Everyone has a plan, until they've been hit once", relates to more than just boxing. Reading all the "ultimate bear gun" threads over the past few years, I have read a lot of theories on how guys would handle a hell bent bear. Bottom line is this, the biggest factor that will dictate how an attack will end, has a lot less to do with caliber and a lot more to do with self control. Until you experience it, you can't know for sure how you will perform. People do silly things under pressure.

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RO, I think that makes alot of sense. No I haven't hunted big bears or even seen one shot; but I've spent sometime in my little tent,awake, with a death grip on the 30'06 pondering how I'll react if one of those 1000lb alaskan browns, feeding 20' away, in the middle of the night, comes looking for me.
It's amazing I slept at all.
I'm sure either .338 or 9.3x62 would work, it's me working, I'd be concerned about.

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One problem about some guy's opinions, actually two problems is when they always use other's experience to bolster their own posts.

The second problem is that such posters seem to always develop an opinion, post it and then attempt to support it in every way possible, rather than posting an opinion based on whatever level of field experience THEY may/may not have.

I find this somewhat confusing as it does not provide the poster's personal experience, simply indicates his having read comments from others. I believe in posting opinions based on my own experiences, however limited these may be.

BC Coastal bears ARE as large as Alaskan bears, as I know from actually being there, not as a weekend tourist, but working in the field for substantial amounts of time. I do not see anyone here stating that the .30-06 is/is not a great game round, only an idiot would denigrate this proven cartridge...OR, the .375H&H, .338WM or 9.3x62, based on performance over decades in the field. So, whatever one's choice here is, the application is much the same between BC and AK.

The original topic was NOT "what is the best Grizzly cartridge" or even "Is the .30-06 equal to,etc.", as there are LOTS of perfectly adequate rounds for Grizzlies, just as one CAN kill Elk with a .25-06. The question was between TWO specific rounds and I find the constant co-option of these threads to "prove" one poster's strongly held opinions to be tendentious and distracting.

The last point made in the post above REALLY captures what the problem is and I have stood ready with my rifle, while watching grown men, with self-expressed considerable bush skill, babble and fumble their rifles, in the presence of their first Grizzly. I have seen this more than once and with Black Bears, as well.

So, to me, while ANYTHING Phil Shoemaker has to say about bears and suitable guns/cartridges for them is GOLD, as I have posted here many times, the choice between these TWO rounds is a "no-brainer"as they are about equal. I have often USED a .30-06 for protection while working solo in Grizzly country, but, given my choice as I am and having actually owned/loaded for and shot all of the cartridges mentioned here, I PREFER a larger bullet and my choices start at the .338WM.

You can find a number of strong recommendations for cartridges in Phil's writings, he is the one gunwriter I ALWAYS read and this is perfectly understandable as we cannot use ONLY the .30-06 and then have anything to write or even "net" about!

Now, that I HAVE my .458WM that I have been after for about 20 years, I fully intend to use it and expect that it WILL be adequate for what I intend it for.

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Originally Posted by kutenay
One problem about some guy's opinions, actually two problems is when they always use other's experience to bolster their own posts.

The second problem is that such posters seem to always develop an opinion, post it and then attempt to support it in every way possible, rather than posting an opinion based on whatever level of field experience THEY may/may not have.


That is a pretty interesting statement.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


I have often USED a .30-06 for protection while working solo in Grizzly country, but,........I PREFER a larger bullet and my choices start at the .338WM.



But that statement isn't really correct. You haven't actually USED a .30-06 for protection while working. You've CARRIED a .30-06 for protection while working. There is a pretty big distinction there. You've never actually killed a grizzly bear by your own admission. So all that you really have is the OPINION that your caliber choice is superior to the '06 in bear stopping capabilities...Not the experience. (Not that I'm trying to say that the 338 is equalled by the 30.06.....)


Originally Posted by Someone
Why pack all that messy meat out of the bush when we can just go to the grocery store where meat is made? Hell,if they sold antlers I would save so much money I could afford to go Dolphin fishing. Maybe even a baby seal safari.
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I was waiting for someone else to point that out. Thanks!

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I'm suprised no one else did....


Originally Posted by Someone
Why pack all that messy meat out of the bush when we can just go to the grocery store where meat is made? Hell,if they sold antlers I would save so much money I could afford to go Dolphin fishing. Maybe even a baby seal safari.
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