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My 9x57 Guild Gun was made in 1908...

DN

Another interesting thing is that Mauser - for China - had a 7 mm cartridge (.278") which - I'm so sorry " is the "parent development" to the American monument .270 Winchester.

Concerning the remark above that the pressure of early GE cartridges was "as high as modern WSM's" is not true at all, just the opposite is correct.

Actually, the parent cartridge for the .270 Winchester was a very similar round based on the .30-06 case using a .288 bullet. It apparently got no further than a prototype, in a European-styled bolt rifle that Winchester developed just before World War One--and was dropped for obvious reasons. After the war, they never got around to introducing the bolt rifle (American-style) until 1925, when the rifle (Model 54) and .270 came out together.

Let us also not forget the 6.5x54mm Mauser (not Mannlicher), designed for the kurz action. It died pretty early on because it featured a relatively slow barrel twist for the 6.5mm of around 1-10, since it was specfically designed for bullets of around 120 grains. I have a custom German 98 made for the round, a really light little mountain rifle made before WWII, but with no name of the maker on it anywhere.

Yes, what we today all "wildcatters", like Mannlicher and Brenneke, were making the 6.5x57, 9x57, 8x64, and and 7x64 all before and during WW1. They really became mainstream factory offerings when the Treaty of V forbade the manufacture of arms in military chamberings, because they Germans had a strong militia tradition, and the fear was that they would all arm themselves with standard equipment. (which they did, anyway).

Limits on quantities and models of arms produced were circumvented by Mauser feeding business to Zastava in Yugoslavia and to Brno in Czechoslovakia, which built up those firms. Mauser also built a factory in Spain.

Now there is an article in the waiting I would love to read, and drool on the pics ...

And oh by the way...if you ever decide to sell it, please call me first... .

DN

WOW!!! Don't believe I've ever seen anyone call Baron Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher a "wildcatter" before. The fact is that the Austrian firm developed its own proprietary line of cartridges, which were not based on the Mauser offerings until the 9.5x57 of 1910 -- the 6.5x54 (1903); 9x56 (1905); and the 8x56 (1908)-- were parallel developments. (Curiously, though, 50+ year-old Kynoch 9x57 ammo will feed and function in my 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. I have just acquired some even older 9x56 ammo, will have to try it in my 9x57 Mauser.)

In any event, the 9x57 Mauser was developed in the very early 1900's for the German East Africa trade, because the farmers needed an affordable rifle that would handle African game, including the occasional lion. The 9.3x57 was developed primarily for Scandinavian use, though I understand some did make their way to the Dark Continent.

The Treaty of Versailles did lead to the 8x60, but had no effect one way or another on the rest of the story.

DN

Well know I know more about these great old cartridges. They have made the acid test, the test of time.
Thanks for all your knowledge!!

If you don't mind: Your remark quoted above does not contradict the fact that Mauser's .278" cartridge was closer to the .270 Winchester compared to Winchester's own ".288-06" .-)

The evolution of the .270 is well documented in a book entitled W.R.A. Co. (Winchester Repeating Arms Company): Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations, by Daniel L. Shuey. There is even a photo of the orginal Winchester "Euro-Rifle." Now, whether Winchester borrowed the .270 bullet diameter is another question, but it is generally agreed among Winchester historians that after WWI Winchester decided on .270 to make sure the thousands of military 7x57's then in America (some on pre-98 Mauser actions) couldn't be rechambered for the Winchester round. Where they got the inspiration is anybody's guess, but there have been many cases of parallel evolution in rifle cartridges.

ad 1. Unfortunately I know many cartridge "documentations" you and I would call "crap". Especially of US origin - just give COTW a look) where facts from Europe had "not very much" influence (to put it mildly).

ad 2. You are right, there is a lot of parallel evolution in cartridges.
But please remember that the .270 Win. bullet diameter is verrry close to metric 7 mm....

I am very aware of it, though some Americans don't seem to be.

On the other hand, if the Chinese Mauser was the inspiration for the .270, it would seem logical for Winchester to have gone directly to the .270 bullet in 1912, when they developed their .288 cartridge, as the Chinese round apparently appeared in 1907, at least according to one source. It was also pretty much based on the 8x57 Mauser cartridge necked down, not the .30-06 case as was the Winchester round.

FWIW Jack O'Connor mentioned in one of his books that he had inside info from Winchester that the .270 was originally came out of some experiements for a new military cartridge. He did not state this as fact only that is what somebody on the inside told him.

Lou

Yeah, I have read the same statement by O'Connor, but never heard anything about it anywhere else.

After WW1 Winchester took note that Newton was winning the speed race with his 256, and 250 Savage, (1915) and yes the velocity race was real. They, Winchester looked to the eastern 7mm/.278 dia. to base or convert the 30 Govt. to win that race.

Where else would they come up with that .277 dia.?

ad 1a. I know you are reliable. You must be of good cultural origin (I guess a Viking)

ad 1b. very mildly put

ad 2. There was several early versions of the Chinese round, one with 57 mm case, one with 60 mm and one with 65 mm (which might have led to the latter .270 Win.)

I am more Viking than anything, but am also a typical American mongrel, with genes from Dutch, Irish, Scots and "Native American" ancestors. Sometimes it gets confusing inside!

djs,
Colonialism was still rampant ... I'd take a guess that the European territories in total offered much more hunting opportunity than the America's on their own. I'd also take a guess that the European manufacturers where competing/developing heavily to fill the need of their colonies for appropriate firearm cartridges.

What I personally find amazing is that the Europeans got by with a handful of "stopper" cartridges in bolt guns ... where as with limited modern hunting opportunities ... we've just kept on making more! Long may the bigbore wildcatter live!
Cheers...
Con

I read an interesting treatise in the Mannlicher Collectors Association newletter that tangentially addresses the issue of European, colonial and American hunting opportunities. the subject was reasons for development of the 9x56 and 9.5x57 M-S cartridges. The standard colonial African needs were mentioned, but then they went into an interesting discussion of European hunting in areas like the Carpathian Mountains, Scandinavia, eastern Europe and other relatively wild parts of the continent that still hosted brown bears, wolves, large wild boars, elg (moose), red stags, and other game larger and perhaps more dangerous than deer. It seems that Europe, pre-World War II, was as different environmentally as it was politically from the current condition.

And for all I know, there still may be parts of the European continent where serious rifles would be in order. In any event, there seems to have been plenty of interest in the rifle and its development a century, plus or minus, ago.

Dennis

A loud 'ME TOO' in praise of Sam Adams Winter Lager. Best beer I've ever tasted!

Not to digress, but the .270 Winchester is based off the .30-03 case, not the .30-06. It is not at all surprising that Mauser's .27 would measure .278, just as the European specs for 7mm are also larger than they are in the USA.

I refer to Mannlicher and Brenneke as being something like "wildcatters" in that they were not part of Kynoch, RWS, DWM, Dynamit Nobel or the other big cartridge manufacturers of their day. They were more more like Charles Newton in the US.

And while many new cartridges were developed just before and during the first World War, it was the restrictions on the 7x57, 6.5x55 SE and 8x57 which made the Mannlicher and the other Mauser cartriges popular in the German states.