Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2195892 - 05/10/08 08:35 PM 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested.
Bill_I Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Southwestern NY
I post this test I conducted partly because of ".303 Guys" reply to me on the other thread and in general for anyone interested.


Here is a home made terminal ballistics test I did with 22 Hornet bullets fired from a rifle that may interest some of you.

The media was a cardboard box of 9” depth filled the first 8” with folded paper. The last 1” was from a book, denser paper with front and back hard covers removed. The last inch of dense paper was to stop the deeper penetrating bullets if needed. The entire box and paper contents were then soaked completely with water inside and out.

Testing range was 50 yards.

The 22 Hornet bullets used were the following and fired from top to bottom on the box media.
1) Hornady 45 Grain Soft Point Hornet bullet @ approximately 2700 f.p.s.
2) Sierra Varminter 45 Grain Soft Point bullet @ approximately 2700 f.p.s.
3) Calhoon 37 Grain Double Hollow Point bullet @ approximately 2830 f.p.s.

Here is a front view of the soaked box exhibit 2149 with the hand drawn evenly spaced bulls and a fired bullet from 50 yards through each.
[img][/img]


Here is a top view of the internal soaked media exhibit 2150.
[img][/img]

Hornady 45 Grain Soft Point. BC .202 – at ¾” showed little expansion as compared. At 1 ½” showed the start of expansion. At 2 ¼” it showed a violent sudden expansion hydraulic shock that was the largest of the three bullets at this point. At 3” the hydraulic shock larger expansion was dieing off fast. By 3 ¾” the shock cavity had ended and the nicely mushroomed bullet was mostly just penetrating. It then penetrated the deepest approximately 8 ½” about ½ way into the heavier paper media at the back.. The recovered remains showed a classic mushroom shape. The remains of this bullet weighed 43 grains out of the original 45 grains.

Sierra Varminter 45 grain Soft point. BC .139 – at ¾” it showed the most initial expansion of the three, likely because of its rounder nose. At 1 ½” there was much expansion as compared to the other two. At 2 ¼” it showed violent expansion, topped only slightly by the Hornady at the same point. At 3” the shock cavity was recessing yet was still greater than the other two. From there the mushroomed bullet continued penetrating yet with a slightly larger diameter wound channel then the Hornady. It came to rest just into the last inch of heavier paper media in the rear. Approximately 8” or ½” behind the Hornady. It had lost its jacket just prior to that but it was recovered. The remains of this bullet and jacket also weight 43 grains out of 45. But, this bullet has mushroomed nearly flat out and was noticeably larger than the Hornady. It was a full ½” diameter.

The Calhoon 37 Grain Double Hollow Point. BC .13 – at ¾” it showed the least expansion, basically none. At 1 ½” it showed a minimal start of expansion as compared to the other two. At 2 ¼” it showed a little expansion but was far behind the 45 grain Varminter Soft Point and behind the Hornady. By 3” it had caught up in expansion as compared for that distance. At 3 ¾” it suddenly blew and started to frag. It had the largest diameter wound channel at this point but it also was the deepest to penetrate before this happened. The base and a couple frags continued to penetrate from there with a smaller diameter wound channel as compared to the Sierra Varminter which was very consistant and also expanded early. The largest chunk the base of the bullet penetrated to 8” deep or just prior to the denser media. A few fragments were found along the path. The recovered remains of this bullet weighed in at 22 grains out of the original 37 grains.

Exhibit 2151 shows the entrance from top to bottom the Hornady, Sierra and Calhoon. With the middle Sierra showing the most initial expansion followed by the Hornady.
[img][/img]


Exhibit 2152 shows left to right the Calhoon, Sierra & Hornady a bit deeper with the excellent early expansion of the soft point Hornet bullets as compared to the hollow point.
[img][/img]


Exhibit 2153 shows top to bottom the Hornady,Sierra & Calhoon. This is approximately the 3 ¾” mark at which the Calhoon finally expanded fragment a full 1 ½” behind the Sierra Soft Point or from another perspective over 50% deeper for violent expansion as compared. The other two bullets had already maxed expansion, largest diameter wound channel and were in penetrating mode while still creating a nice diameter channel from their mushroom characteristics. From this point on the Calhoon follwed with penetrating mode but with a smaller wound channel diameter as compared to either.
[img][/img]

Exhibit 2154 shows left to right Hornady, Sierra & Calhoon recovered bullet remains in front of the scale.
[img][/img]


As a fellow hunter looking in I feel you know your needs much better than I do obviously. I am not a bullet engineer but just an avid varmint hunter like yourself. I simply show this test,report to help as others have done similar which I found helpful. You can decide what, if any good this does for you and how, if at all, it may help.

For myself the test concluded what I had seen in the field. At down range distances of 100 plus yards and lower velocities the Calhoon bullet was zipping through Woodchucks with little expansion leaving crawlers that either of the other two soft points never did. This hollow point bullet like others does not expand / frag well , at 22 Hornet velocities down range. Nor does it carry the down range energy of the 45 grain bullets. The only lighter grain bullet that I have seen fragment well to date is the Hornady 35 grain V Max, which works decent out to 150 yards on Woodchucks/Groundhogs but certainly lags behind the 45 grainers which anchor with vast superiority, even out to 200. I think it is likely a better ground squirrel bullet than Woodchuck / Fox. I have not tried the TN’T bullet because of its very low b.c. and light weight but, I am sure with its hacked off and cupped design it fragments well. The Winchester 45 grain soft point appears to expand even better than the Varminter with its larger lead tip which is more squared off. Unfortunately this bullet is not available to reloaders. Some have asked me about the Hornady SPSX / soft point bullets which start at 50 grain and how they compare to the Hornady 45 SP Hornet bullets. They note the superb expansion, explosion of such bullets but, are also usually shooting them from faster,larger 22 center fires. I have never shot/hunted them. For what its worth I did contact Hornady in the past in regards to a comparison of the two bullets and spoke to one of their tech. support team members. He was kind enough to look up the paper specs of each bullet for me and noted the SPSX 50 grain actually has a slightly thinner jacket than the Hornet bullet does! Go figure as to why? All things considered (accuracy in most rifles at 100 & 200, energy & expansion down range, I consider the Sierra Varminters in 40 & 45 grain soft points amongst the best all around 22 Hornet bullets made. The Hornady 45 SP IMO is right up there with them and some whom call Coyotes or hunt medium size game at close range may prefer it as it penetrates a bit deeper and mushrooms in classic form.

Enjoy the outdoors……..

Bill_I
_________________________
"I ain't as good as I once was but, I'm as good once as I ever was"

Top
#2196038 - 05/11/08 12:14 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: Bill_I]
jim62 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 5978
Bill,

Nice test. I'm glad you are enjoying your CZ Hornet.I followedyour posts over on RFC huntin' groundhogs with that puny little 17HMR CZ American of yours ;\) (I'm a 17HMR lover ,too).

The only thing I have a question about is that you seem to be avoiding THE bullets that get the MOST out of any Hornet in terms of downrange performance-

40g Nosler Ballistic Tip
40g Hornady V-Max
40g Sierra Blitz King


Any of those slugs that your Hornet shoots best when coupled with LILGun powder will give you GREAT case life(lower pressures due to the LILGUN) great accuracy AND the best down range trajectory of any Hornet load you can make(due to the high B.C.s of the above bullets).

I have used 40g Hornady V maxes with 13g of LILGun in several Honrets and the load wants to shoot near .5 MOA in most. Think of it as the 17HMR 17g Vmax load times TWO..

The only thing is, with the CZ 527 ,you need to move the plastic magazine block back a bit to seat the bullets out far enough to fit the throat. I have done several such clip mods for myself and freinds and it work likes a charm.

Once you do that ,it opens up a hold new world of "hurt" for anything small inside 250 yards.





Edited by jim62 (05/11/08 12:18 AM)
_________________________
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt

Top
#2196104 - 05/11/08 05:02 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: jim62]
Bill_I Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Southwestern NY
Hi jim62, \:\) I appreciate your thoughts. I know as a hunter your trying to help and adding what works well for you. Again I appreciate that. Here are the overly detailed (chuckle).... details of my experiance with the 40 grain V Max that you and/or others can sift through with a cup of morning coffee and "take what you need and leave the rest".

I welcome all comments and try to learn something new everyday. Nothing is "set in stone" and after all this is just an enjoyable hobby, talk arouind the "ol campfire."



Actually I have loaded & hunted 40 grain plastic tips from the 22 Hornet quite a bit. Last year loaded tested & hunted Woodchucks with it quite extensively from a 1/12 twist break action Handi Hornet I have sense horse traded. The new CZ is my third 22 Hornet not my first. On another thread here I listed the bullets I have loaded/hunted. In 22 Hornet about 8 to date as I recall.

I used the 40 grain V Max with two powders Lil Gun & Win 296. I took maybe 30 Woodchucks with that bullet at ranges out to 175-180 yards with upper body, center mass point of impact. It did not anchor Chucks any better than 45 grain soft points which anchor them to 200 yards. It was accurate but the difference in hundredths of an inch at 100 & 200 yards as compared to preferred loads with 45 grain soft points was so marginal, if any, it was not practical for the purpose.

The bullet did not fragment well at Hornet velocities. It typically had dime size exit holes and that was from the fast 1/12 twist barrel on Woodchucks/Groundhogs. It only stuck, did not exit on one Woodchuck and that was at very close range of 25 yards.

The 22 Hornet is a much different animal than the 17 HMR. The HMR has a fast 1/9 twist as compared to typically 1/16 in Hornet. Its also shooting much lighter bullets. The combination of nearly twice as fast a twist (high bullet rpm/rotation) along with over twice as light a bullet yet only a 5% - 10% loss in velocity equals much better fragmentation as compared. The 22 Hornet acts more like a 22mag. It does not want to frag ammo. There is not a lot of bullet spin and it shoots heavy bullets for its velocity by todays varmint caliber standards. They have to make “golf balls” with plastic tips and ultra thin jackets, hollow points which are severely hacked off, cupped and fluted etc. in lighter weights at faster velocities just to get the darn things to frag. Soft point varmint designed bullets are ideal for the old timers IMO and work as well today as they did many moons ago. They create the largest entrance, are by far the most reliable to expand down range at lower velocities and flat out just work……..every time……although maybe not with as much dramatics as a fast plastic tip on a small varmint at close range. IMO- Its like trying to put a modern supped up built 4 cylinder Japanese engine designed for very light weight great handling go-cart / Indy like sports cars into a heavy old GTO or Super Bee red light to red light muscle car. Despite modern remedies the latter still needs a big block under the hood.

It is made for .223 caliber velocities and the low end velocity needed for fragmentation is higher than “Hornet” bullets. Also the Hornady 45 grain Hornet soft point has a slightly higher BC as compared to the 40 gr. V Max (.202 vs .198 as I remember / Hornady specs) and with its 45 grains carries more energy down range on my ballistics calculator along with what I have seen in the field. Higher B.C. plus 5 more grains.....along with reliable expansion down range.

It was an accurate bullet and I realize some prefer it. If I was in some sort of bench rest competition rather then hunting with 22 Hornets I would reconsider it. It is my understanding that the Sierra Blitzking in 40 grain plastic tip does fragment better than the 40 V Max on the low end of velocity. And the Nosler B –Tip needs higher velocity in 40 grain yet as compared to the Hornady. None are designed for the Hornet or .218 Bee as other bullets are.

Last just for myself / IMO. It has to be single loaded in bolt action repeaters. This combined with the fact b) they cost more c) they did not kill to further range d) accurate but not noticeably more accurate than preferred loads with Hornet bullets e) and most important they did not frag at Hornet velocities down range on Woodchucks and passed through 99% of them leaving a dime size exit, has eliminated the 40 grain B-Tips from my Hornet bullet lists.

By the way, the Calhoon 37 grain hollow point is listed as "explosive" in Hornets by the vast majority, all over the net. Like the 40 V Max it is in fact accurate. But also like the 40 grain V Max it can be shot in the fast 22 center fire calibers which should tell us something about fragmentation at Hornet velocities down range with either. Not sure what they are looking at but even on larger varmints like Woodchucks it was/is far from "explosive". I have sense found a few like myself.

These are my thoughts for today anyways...... \:D


Edited by Bill_I (05/11/08 05:40 AM)
_________________________
"I ain't as good as I once was but, I'm as good once as I ever was"

Top
#2196175 - 05/11/08 05:56 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: Bill_I]
jim62 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 5978
Well, first of all I did not mean in any way to insinuate that you had minimal experience with the .22 Hornet.

As to your experiences with the ball tip bullets etc. First of all, my testing on smaller targets- Prairie dogs Jack rabbits starlings, crows etc(ie light skinned targets) shows that the 40 Vmax slugs expand pretty well(blows 'em apart with good hits).

The SHAPE of the .22 40g slugs is their advantage IMHO, they are just more efficient in retaining velocity all longer ranges. The trajectories are definitely flatter at longer ranges than the rounder nosed slugs.Wind resistance is another big factor. In my part of the world, the wind blows nearly ever day. Sometimes shifting 360degrees in a 12 hour period(I've seen it happen).

One thing I definitely found was that the 35g slugs are useless to me in a Hornet because they have SUCH POOR BCs!! I once did a head to head comparison in an 1885 Browning Low wall hornet I had at the time. It was very accurate with both the Hornady 35g and 40g Vmax slugs at 100 yards (near .4 MOA). I shot loads with both bullets in the rifle side by side in a stiff 15mph crosswind at paper at 150 and 200 yards. Past 150 yards, the 35g slugs were very inconsistent due to the wind's effect on them.

As to the 17HMR comparison, While I agree that the Hornet suffers from a lack of rotational velocity due to the slow twist rate,it DOES retain energy and hit MUCH MUCH harder than the 17HMR does at 200 yards due to the mass and ballistic coefficient's of the bullets.To me, it's like comparing a .357 mag to a 44 mag.

The next slug I am going to try will be the Sierra Blitz king 40g slugs. I will do a bit of "Lab work" on my own to see if they expand any better than the Hornadys do.


Edited by jim62 (05/11/08 06:00 AM)
_________________________
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt

Top
#2196209 - 05/11/08 06:19 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: jim62]
Bill_I Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Southwestern NY
Hi Jim \:\)

I just sent you a pm. I see we sure do have a lot in common. I was editing my reply likely when you posted. I wanted to make sure it sounded right.......in a friendly way.

I agree with everything on your second reply. If I had a fine Browning Low Wall (I may some day :)). I may very well use a 40 grain plastic tip also. They certainly did not lack any kill power down range as compared to the 45 SP's. Its just they did not frag well like they are suppose to. Also I no longer have a single shot and prefer to load my repeaters as repeaters. My Winchester Model 70 can handle / cycle the Hornady 45 grain at 1.75" COL but I also use .223 diameter bullets in that old girl. The CZ maxes out at less COL for cycleing.

With my break action single shot I played around with the V Max and various C.O.L.'s

Please do try the Blitzkings in 40 grain plastic tip and keep me updated for fragmentation as compared. I was told from a couple people I trust greatly that they frag at lower velocity as compared to the Hornady.

I gave up on the 40 grain plastic tips.......at least til I find a nice low wall \:\) Besides, I have a thing for ol soft points and they certainly work very well for what I do.

Regards,
Bill_I


Edited by Bill_I (05/11/08 06:21 AM)
_________________________
"I ain't as good as I once was but, I'm as good once as I ever was"

Top
#2196349 - 05/11/08 07:38 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: Bill_I]
RockyRaab Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 13275
Loc: Ogden, Utah
Just get yourself a Browning Micro. I can seat bullets at any length I desire, including plastic-tipped ones just barely inside the neck, and they still fit the magazine and feed. The single-stack magazine only gives me 3+1 capacity, but I happily trade that for the long usable length of the rounds.

Mine also shoots almost any bullet into sub-inch and will plunk the best of them into 0.6" on no-wind days. Absolutely my favorite rifle.
_________________________
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.


Top
#2196779 - 05/11/08 12:17 PM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: RockyRaab]
Bill_I Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Southwestern NY
 Originally Posted By: RockyRaab
Just get yourself a Browning Micro. I can seat bullets at any length I desire, including plastic-tipped ones just barely inside the neck, and they still fit the magazine and feed. The single-stack magazine only gives me 3+1 capacity, but I happily trade that for the long usable length of the rounds.

Mine also shoots almost any bullet into sub-inch and will plunk the best of them into 0.6" on no-wind days. Absolutely my favorite rifle.


Hi Rocky,

Thanks for the thought. Yes, those Brownings are fine Hornets to my eye. As I mentioned to Jim Winchester & Browning rifles and shotguns are some of my favorites.

As far as seating 40 grain plastic tips in mags/clips,etc. I likely could in my Winchester Model 70 Super Grade with its box mag.. I already load/shoot the Hornady 45 SP at 1.750" in it. I just don't have much interest anymore in those 40 grain B-Tips.

Friday I took my CZ to the range with reloads. Like yours above average for several 5 shot groups of the prefered loads was in the .6's". Best were in the upper .4"s worst were in the low .8"'s. This was with new rather than fireformed brass. It doesn't appear to be bullet fussy either. My Winchester M-70 shoots all of that good and then some.

The Browning low walls & micros are also some of the finest 22 Hornet sporter rifles made IMO. They sure are sweet and also are getting tough to find.

The 40 gr plastic tips are a hoot to play with in Hornet from a bench POV in particular. But, for myself and what I do varmint hunting while giving up nothing at the bench, I am pretty much sold on the the various 40 & 45 grain "Hornet" bullets, especially the 45 grain soft points.

Thanks agin
_________________________
"I ain't as good as I once was but, I'm as good once as I ever was"

Top
#2198171 - 05/12/08 09:51 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: Bill_I]
CrimsonTide Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 15055
Loc: Kentucky
Just want to say thanks for a great thread here. I have a .223 that never sees the light outside my gunsafe here lately, and I traded my .22-250. An old H&R handi rifle in .22 Hornet is really the one I have all the time. I have loaded the 45 grain Sierra and the 40 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. I was pleased with both, and found both to be effective killers. I have taken coyotes with the 35 grain Vmax, and the 40 grain BT. I just find the Hornet to be all I need for 95 percent of my varminting.
Thanks again for taking the time to run the test and then write it up!
CT
_________________________
Do something today to make this country a better place. Slap a Democrat. It may not help, but it'll sure make you feel better.

Top
#2199006 - 05/12/08 07:01 PM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: Bill_I]
lizardtrack Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 3
Hi Bill, where you at? I'm from Colden. I have Browning Hi-Wall in Hornet. I tried 12.5 gr. of lilgun with Hornady 45 gr.HP and got signs of pressure,- stretched cases, poor groups etc. backed down to 9.5 gr and put 3 almost through the same hole at 50 yds. Now I'll start working up again. What is your favorite load in the Hi-Wall? I just found this forum a couple of minutes ago, seems pretty good. I usually play with the 17M2. Till next time

Top
#2200143 - 05/13/08 11:12 AM Re: 22 Hornet Terminal Ballistics Test/Photos/Report For Those Interested. [Re: Bill_I]
303Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 215
 Quote:
Thanks again for taking the time to run the test and then write it up!
Ditto. \:\)

Hi Bill_I.
I am now planning a smilar test based on yours. I'm not sure where I'll find the same paper but I'm working on it. My velocities will be different so I will have to include the same bullet weights but mine will be 45gr Speer and 46gr 218 Bee RNHP super-X. I will include 50gr Seirra Blitz, 55gr Seirra semi-point, 55gr Hornady SP, 53gr Hornady HP match and 60gr Hornady SP. If I can get hold of a chrony, I'll shoot over that.

Just for fun, I might repeat some weights at 175yds.



Edited by 303Guy (05/13/08 11:14 AM)
_________________________
303Guy

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
Support Our Sponsors 1
Who's Online
463 registered (1lesfox, 10ring1, 01Foreman400, 257heaven, 2Bimmers, 300s, 44 invisible), 916 Guests and 335 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Support Our Sponsors 2
Forum Stats
50675 Members
72 Forums
638715 Topics
9168513 Posts

Max Online: 4366 @ 10/05/10 09:36 AM
Support Our Sponsors 3


CLICK HERE for LEUPOLD VX6 OPTICS at CAMERA LAND!







Copyright © 2000-2013 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.