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aggie,

Well, I just bought a 270WSM (700 SPS) and am in the process of bedding the TI stock that I bought for it. I might actually get to shoot it by this weekend.

As far as the boomers go, all mine digest nothing but premiums when I use them for hunting. Usually Partitions. Although I killed my bull with a 180 Scirroco and it performed great. And, I do enjoy shooting them and do so often.

Tony.

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dam,

Well, I'll have to respectfully disagree with one point.

I killed my bull at 450 yards, using my 300 RUM. Was on a hunt, shot presented itself, I had confidence in my gun and shooting ability as I had practiced at long range prior to going on that hunt.

I can't say that I would have considered that shot with a 243 or possibly even a 270 or 30/06.

5 day hunt, cake on the line, I want all of the gun that I can shoot well. For me it is a 300 RUM, 300 Win or even a 338 RUM which I now have.

Where I will agree with you is that might not be the case for everyone. You said it well, "take as much gun that you can shoot and head for the hills". Agree.

However I will add a caveat, also know what the gun and your shooting ability is capable of.

Tony.

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Two things.

One. Shooting a bullet faster does not necessarily make it more powerful. In fact, it usually makes it expand more which may not be desirable with a 150 grain bullet on an 800 lb animal.

Two. Given the 338 Win Mag is so easy to load for, shoot, and performs so well on elk, why would someone even consider using a 270 unless that's all they have?




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Did you ever wonder why you never hear any "cripped elk that got away" storys from the guys who hunt them with .270s ,and smaller, rounds?...........HNY............10


"Like with any House of Prostitution we ought to charge admission at the United Nations building"



"Even better, we should bulldoze it down and put a public shooting range in its place." "We'd be a safer country for it".
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High country we really don't have a disagreement here. If a person is thoroughly familiar with the gun and load those long shots are a snap. But when you're talking shooting over a quarter of a mile things can get ugly real quick with the wind , angle of shot etc. I've done it ,and try not to make a habit of it.
I just get really disgusted with the so called experts that make their living writing big whoppers for the gun rags calling for these big magnums when in fact they just aren't necessary. Nice to have yes necessary no.


the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Dam,

I agree with what you've stated.

Believe me, it wasn't exactly what I wanted for a shot oppertunity. It is also about my self imposed limit on shots at game. The circumstances were in my favor : we topped a mountain and accross the valley on the next mountian was the bull. So the bull was unaware of our presence. Unfortunately, there was no way to get any closer. The other thing that I had in my favor was that it was dead calm and I could go prone on my bipod, which I did.

I will agree with you that the big boomers are not necessary.

To me, they are just alittle more insurance in case the shot presentation is less than ideal (but not unethical).

BTW, were in Wy are you located ? I have hunted mule deer and antelope around Saratoga with Jim Schell @ Rough Country Outfitters.

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HiCountry, I used a 150 grain Scirocco in my 7 mag on a mule deer, and I liked it's performance, but I dont have much experience with it other than that. I do believe it to be a good mule deer on down round, but I dont have Elk experience with it. I may get an opportunity to Elk hunt in Montana this year, and if I do, I will probably develop some loads for my 300 Win or the 7 mag. But I would go with a partition or X bullet if it shoots ok. I'm jealous of your 270 WSM, as a muley hunter, that just sounds like a sweet setup.

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Aggie,

It is sitting on my loading bench right now, awaiting the Marine-Tex to finish curing.

It is turning out better than I anticipated. The TI stock I bought is really light. It is going to turn out to be a real sweet mtn rifle.

BTW, here is a pic of the 180 Scirroco I dug out of my bull. Out of my 300 RUM, MV is 3300. I hit him 1/4 toward me at 450 yards, impact velocity was about 2500. Hit behind the right front shoulder, dug the bullet out under the hide in front of the left rear ham. Took out one lung, the liver, went through the paunch and was bulging under the hide where I found it.

[Linked Image]

Tony.

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Aggie,

One last point, out of a 300 WIN, the 180 Scirroco would be an awesome long range thumper. I could not get the Scir to shoot out of my 300 WIN, but my buddie got good results with his 300 WIN.

But, you can never go wrong with the 180 Partition.

Good luck,

Tony.

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HighCountry I'm south of Lusk. I do my elk hunting for the last 28 years over the the Sierra Madre's. Hunted the Upper Green before that. We've got elk here I could get a landowner license for this area, but it just wouldn't be the same. Sides all that I'ld have to find something else to do for a vacation. Tried golf, but swinging those clubs just can't hold a candle to smackin them balls with a handgun.


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The Upper Green is a beautiful area. I usually ride into the Wind Rivers each summer. Green River Lakes, Elk Heart, New Fork, or up the Old Sweeny Pack trail. It's what I bought horses for.

I've seen Elk asorb two 180g bullets through the lungs out of 300WM another elk took bullets from a 30-06 and just stand and look at us. I've also watched them fold on the spot when hit with 120g partitions from my 25-06. Why one works better than another, I don't know. But they are all dead.

I watched a group of friends in Alaska shoot 7 bull moose over a 10 day period all with 140g Failsafe bullets out a 270 WSM. Not one moose was lost.

I may go back to a larger caliber gun if I find the 270WSM won't do the job. But for the time being, I'm going to try it. So far it's worked fine.

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Aggiedog, one of the guys in our crew has taken a bull each of the past two years shooting generic rem core locks out of his 7MM mag. Any premium bullet would only be a plus. I've always luged my 13lb .338ultra, the idea is to get my bull first, then switch over to a lighter rifle for mullies. Doesn't always happen as planned though. So I picked up a .270WSM this year for future use. Great deer caliber, plus shedding 5lbs is sweet when it's your turn to do all the walking.

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The "Out Of State Vs. In State Hunter" is a complete crock fabricated by a bored gunwriter and repeated ad-nauseum. I'm an in-state elk hunter... I'm not passing on a good bull if I can make the shot... good bulls on public ground are tough to get on and the average guided out-of-stater has as good (or better) chance (depending on his outfitter) than an in-state hunter. Point being, use enough gun and know it intimately.


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I don't think the entire concept is necessarily in error at all and surely don't see where "out of state" and "in state" enter into the argument. I've seen some real looloos from "in state" in lots of different states and some real skookum sumbitches from both "out of state" and "out of country" for that matter.

The issue of if a guy who is less experienced in the game, less knowledgeable of the local surrounds, has a limited timeframe and harried schedule, has plunked down 5 grand or more, and has probably dreamt of his trip for a long while, certainly through a year or more of planning/booking etc., the entire time building anticipation and priming all of his buddies about the monster he's gonna take feels more "pressure" to try and drop something is a no brainer. Sure he does. And, this is the guy the articles are written for. Like you I don't agree with the conclusions reached by all of the scribes, but generally that's ok because next month they'll write the same article with the opposite conclusion anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The serious hunter, whether a local or a come-from-away knows what he's doing 'cause he's been there and done that before, maybe done lots of "thats" in lots of "theres"...

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I agree with Journeyman. The hunter who has big money on the table or who has never got his bull is more inclined to take a so so shot, because he doesn't want to go home tomorrow empty handed. They don't have to be out of staters. Granted there are very ethical hunters from both. And there are slobs from both. Your residence doesn't make you one or the other. But rather your own personal skills. If you know how to find and hunt elk, your confidence tells you that you can find the animals again tomorrow or next year.

I've shot enough elk, that it doesn't hurt my feelings to not tag out on a given year. I'll get one next year. I've let a lot really nice bulls walk away because they were 500+ yards out. Or because they were ghosting through trees and I couldn't really assess how big they were, or I didn't want to take a running shot through timber, or numerous other reasons. I'd rather not try a shot and spook them. It's just easier to try and find them tomorrow and get closer.
That's why it's called Hunting not Killing.

I sat at the range this past summer working on my 270 WSM load. A fellow came in with his 300 RUM and popped off a couple of rounds. In convresation he told me that he shot at a monster bull last year. Pointing to a spot on the hill behind the range, stating "It was about that far out and all my bullets missed,"( it was 600+ yards) So he bought a cannon, saying " I bought a gun that will reach out and get em this year".

I just don't get that logic. Spend the time required hunting to get close enough and a 270 or the 270WSM will do the job.

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Quote
Did you ever wonder why you never hear any "cripped elk that got away" storys from the guys who hunt them with .270s ,and smaller, rounds?...........HNY............10




I had a fellow tell me about several elk that were shot by hunters in his camp using .270s and how the elk got away wounded by good hits through the vitals. My thoughts are "If they got away, how do you know they were hit solidly through the vitals?"



Anyway, I have shot only one Elk, and it was only a spike, so an Elk expert I am not...... But for what it's worth, I hit the Elk broadside high through both lungs with a 140gr Hornady at about 3076fps, and he was DRT. I would not hesitate to take the .270 Elk hunting again, but might stuff it with partitions or X bullets to add a little safety margin.



John


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Hondo, in fact you hear plenty of such stories, just not from the guys who made the shot. Talk to guides and outfitters--and of course Elmer made a career out of .270 (and .30-06) horror stories about lost elk. He famously referred to the .270 as a good pest rifle! Of course, lots of the problems in his era were the result of bad bullets. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk with the .270 and good bullets, but it would be way down on my list if I had a choice. When you stand next to a 900 pound animal, even the .338 looks pretty dang small.


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As much as I fall on the Elmer side of the fence rather then the Oconner side I lost a tremedous amount of respect for Elmer after reading a few of his books which had bogus information. As an example he wrote many times about Bullet failure. Phrases like bullets "bouncing off" of sheep and elk( I strongly doubt that). This was my favorite: The elk was shot perfectly through the heart but the bullet failed and we lost it as it ran off without a blood trail to follow.

If it was lost how was it known the bullet was perfectly through the heart? If it was perfectly through the heart how did the bullet fail in a way that the elk lived? How did the elk remain alive with a hole through it's heart?

I believe in the Elmer throry of big diameter and heaveir bullets. Actually it's not a theory it's a proven fact. I have seen well in excess of 1000 big game killed in my work and the bigger the bore the better the crumple effect. This is VERY consistant. Anyone can see a few animals fold in thier tracks with a very high velocity rifle bullet and assume it will happen to all of them. However if you see 100 animals shot will all react the same? I know they won't becasue I have seen those high velocity bullets allow game to run plenty of times.

I think the big difference here is resolution of events. So many people base their entire ballistic belief system on only a few personally witnessed kills and a few stories from others. Who can blame that? It's human nature to believe what you see, I have done the same thing.

When the numbers go from a few stories and personal events to 100's of personal witnessed events I would bet that those feelings would change. I would also bet that if you shot an animal with that laser flat lightweight bullet and arrived on the site to see one tiny drop of blood you would also have a different opion when that animal cost 1000-1250 bucks and you will spend the next day and a half tracking those tiny specks of blood every hundred yards.

When you shoot that same animal with a bullet of bigger diameter and proportional weight the exit will show you blood and then an expired animal, after a short tracking job. This opinion was not formed by anyone forcing it on me. This opinion was formed after seeing many hundreds of big animals shot and the level of work to locate them afterwords.

I owned and shot a 300 weatherby for ten years. I have seen animals killed with it as if hit with a bolt of lightening from heaven. However I have also seen animals like a coyote shot behind the last rib quartering away run 200 yards dragging it's intestines behind it. That High velocity bullet blew bits of coyote to high heaven and that coyote still ran a very long way. Had it been an 800 pound elk I would have never seen it again! I have also seen antelope in Wyoming shot broadside run 500 yards before falling in plain sight. If that animal was in a forest or mountain situation it too would have been lost for good. Not a drop of blood was on the ground the entire way walking to fetch the dead antelope. Who would think an antelope of 130 pounds could travel that far with a 180 grain 300 weatherby bullet through the chest, with an exit hole? When we opend up that antelope it was a mass of jello and one shoulder was completely bone pulp and purple goo. But not a drop on the ground!

I saw a Zebra shot with that rifle run straight away with a group of a dozen others as we waited for it to fall. They all made it to the bush and vanished. We could hear them but could not see them anylonger. Then they appeared again about 250 yards to our left and moving but no way of knowing which was the wounded one for a follow up. Then they began running towards us again in a big circle. That Wounded zebra was falling behind and the others put a big gap between it and them. As we were still standing by the truck we waited for that lagging zebra to give us another shot and we saw it fall only 100 yards or so from the truck. When we arrived there was no blood on that zebra at all. No exit and what seemed to be a zebra that died of a heart attack! It took quite while to locate the bullet hole too! I tracked back to see where this zebra had fallen looking for blood just to see for myself that it was not bleeding. As our tracking began we all searched for blood and found nothing but specks here and there. Most looked like red grains of sand. After about 200 yards we saw where the group of zebra split from this single zebra. Had we tracked it the correct way from the beginning as if it were lost, rather then backtracking would we have followed this set of tracks going right back to the beginning? or would we have stayed with the group running off away from us? No blood to point the way.

It was many events like this that caused the sale of that rifle and get a bigger bore gun. Yeah I saw the 300 weatherby crumple game many times, but it was not the norm it was the exception. Had I seen only those few exceptions I too would be posting here about the fantastic performance of those ultra fast 30 and under calibers. Fortunately for me I have had enough experience to see through that. I understand reality now based on high resolution of animals shot, not the limited success of only a few events.


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JJ, no doubt Elmer served up some heaping helpings of BS at times, and seemed to have some pretty bizarre anecdotal "evidence" of bullet failures. I love the ones where he tells you EXACTLY where an animal was hit which was ultimately lost because the "pest rifle" bullet failed--information that would be well nigh impossible to obtain without an autopsy. (Like the heart example you gave.)
As a general principal, you can't argue with "bigger is better"--modern premium bullets may narrow the gap some, but if a 150 grain .270 partition or Trophy Bonded is good, how much better must be a .338 250 grain bullet of the same construction?


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Since we're on the topic of Elmerisms, I found an old magazine the other day w/ an article from the old master. Here is a quote on why I take some of his work with a grain of salt:

"Next let us turn to African big game. In three safaris I have found the African game much tougher than American game, in spite of what some writers claim. THe first two oryx I shot in the lungs with 300-grain Kynoch soft-nose from my .333 O.K.H. both got clean away. I was so certain of my bullet placement that I opened the bolt slowly and pocketed my empty cartridge and watched them run and wring their tails, but they just kept on going. We trailed one until dark and lost him, and trailed the other bull some seven miles after a broadside hit in the lungs behind the shoulder. I finally killed one that was running all-out at 200 yards by aiming way ahead with the horisontal wire of my scope in line with the spine. -Elmer Keith in Guns for Big Game"

If he did actually hit them where he thought, maybe he should have been using a .270, so they would have dropped
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Experience is a great teacher, but it is subject to our prejudices, even for the best of us. Somebody once wrote, we tend to remember things that prove our points and forget those that contradict them. This is evident in a lot of Elmers writing (and just about every elk gun post). He killed way way more game than I ever will, but when something went wrong with a small caliber, it was always the fault of the small caliber no matter what. When something went wrong with a large caliber, it was "tough game" or poor shooting, but never the fault of the caliber. If a crtitter ran 300 yards after being hit with one of his .33 cals, it was normal, if it ran 300 yards after being hit with a .30-06, it was because the hunter used a pest rifle....

-Lou

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