Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game 270 wsm on Elk?

Dang, I had no idea what a can of worms I was opening.

Here is my situation. If I elk hunted enough and had the $ I would no doubt buy a 30+ caliber. But the way it is, I have never been, but now I have been invited for next year. Though I am not sure that I will even be able to go, I would feel underarmed if I went with my 270 win. I know people kill em with it all the time, but having never hunted them, I would like as much advantage as I can. But here is the deal, I hunt a lot of deer, mostly just whitetails up to 180 pounds, and I may not do any elk hunting for awhile. So changing to a 300 doesn't really appeal to me at this point.

The 270 wsm appears to be an awesome round and I am thinking of switching from my 270 win to the wsm. If I made the switch and got to elk hunt next year I would feel better prepared weapon wise, but I though I would post here and see what yall thought of how much better I should feel....

What I have read is about what I expected. With that weapon I would have to use premium bullets and take very ethical shots.....which I would do anyway. I like the long range possibilities for deer with the wsm, but would not feel real good about it will elk unless told different by someone w/ much more experience.

Yall have done what I was looking for when I made this post, and I greatly appreciate it. Please keep it coming. I just wanted to make it known where I was in this.

JJHack, you use a 30-06 mostly don't you? If so, why is that better than the 300 weatherby? If I were to guess, the slower velocity allows the bullet to do more damage....but I really don't know.

I think it would work out just fine for you. I have shot a few elk with a 270 but have more or less, made the 338 Winchester my cartridge of choice. This season has been a little different for me, I been hunting with a 300 WSM. Now since 270 WSM ammo can be had with 140 gr Fail Safes, I would not even give it a second though. I don't own a 270 WSM yet, I plan on having one made up if a Move to Wyoming comes about.

Woodrow,

I have shot a bunch of deer and hogs, and one elk. I have hunted a bit from stands in Texas and a bit in the mountains in SW Oregon. My elk came from Oregon. I typically spend a lot of time at the range and obssess over fine details of accuracy and ballistics. I say that so you know what level of credence to attach to my remarks. Let me give you some stuff to add to the growing pile of things for you to consider.

My deer rifle progess has gone from 7mm Rem Mag to 300 Win to a 28" barreled custom 300 Win to a custom 30-06. Yeah, I did get one specialty deer rifle--a 280 Ack in a trade that I may use. My elk rifles went from a custom 340 Wby to a custom 338 RUM to custom 338 Win. I achieved excellent accuray with all these, and the hardest kicking one--the 338 RUM (50 ft lbs of recoil) I shot the best of all. I have downsized so to speak because even in long range country, most shots are close, and out to 500 yds, any of the above chamberings are flat enough. The slower velocity also means much longer barrel life.

My 338 Win Shoots a 225 grain bullet at about 2800 fps, where the 338 RUM shot a 250 grain bullet at 2950 fps. This is not a significant difference when it comes to taking animals out to 500 yds. I shot last year's elk at 40 yds with my 10 lb (w/scope) 338 RUM. The elk was being pushed hard and moving when I shot it through a 3" gap in the trees--yeah I know, a bit of luck there. He went 20 yds straight uphill and fell. His lungs were pretty much gone.

After shooting that elk, I realized the 338 RUM was no advantage. The RUM needs heavier/tougher bullets so they'll hold together. Because a 338 Win doeasn't shoot as fast, I can use a lighter bullet and get similar penetration and expansion. Another advantage is the 338 Win could come in at 2 lbs lighter and still be very shootable, so I had Celt build me one. (An 8 lb w/scope 338 RUM would be a monster, and I am not recoil shy.) I didn't get an elk this year with the 338 Win, but it cleanly took out a Texas hog, and hogs are very tough.

A 270 WSM is not really a step up in killing power--especially on larger game--over a 270. However, a 30-06, 300 Win, or 300 WSM is an excellent deer rifle as well as a very good elk rifle. The 30-06 is capable of making clean kills at way farther than you'd probably care to shoot it. The faster 300s are a bit flatter shooting, but that is just not the advantage many think it is unless you are setting up shoot at 600-1200 yds like the long range boys do. Reagrdless, the difference in flatness out of a 300 mag vs a 270 WSM is not significant. Also, the barrel life of a 300 Win/Wby mag will be better than the barrel life of a 270 WSM.

I think your best choice would be to keep the 270 you have and then get a 338 Win. If you have to sell the 270 to finance the new rifle, then strongly consdider one of the 300 Mags as your one all around gun. A 300 mag will do everything a 270 WSM will and more.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Blaine

I've pondered the "control group size" issue quite a bit and for myself at least honestly admit that personal bias and selective memory weigh as heavilly as cold hard data. To give a for instance...I've been extremely privileged through circumstance of my work to be able to hunt literally around the world. My favored firearm when I'm away from home and packing just one to use for whatever I may encounter wherever I may be is the 7mm Rem Mag. I have my reasons for arriving at this choice and plan on starting a thread on it one day, but for now let's just go with it as my choice, right or wrong. A while back I took a contract in Cameroon and was immediately contacted by a fellow I knew in oilfield services over there to be sure and bring a rifle (like who wouldn't? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) with primary quarry being 4 different variety of duiker. I naturally packed my 7 mag stoked with 140 partitions. As circumstance would have it I was presented the opportunity to take a giant eland and with no fuss, no bother popped him at 120 or so yards and he simply sat down on his haunches and flopped over dead as a rock. Now you can imagine I've selectively "cherry picked" and used this story many times to extoll the virtues of the 7 mag. The fact that this is the one and only eland I've ever shot and only 50% of the sum total I've even seen shot has rarely interfered with my learned argument! Now deer, I've well over 100 of many types including the "North American Deer Slam" plus red, roe, fallow, sika and sambar. I can promise you I've NEVER used the 90 lb Alabama doe that traveled over 150 yards after being shot with the very same rifle and load as the eland as the typical whitetail performance of my favorite round!



Specific to elk, as I've written before we have property that has granted hundreds of depredation tags in my lifetime, allowing the opportunity to witness one bigazzed pile of elk get shot. Funny thing is, depending on how I'd care to spin it I could say I've seen more elk run off after being hit with the 30-06 than with any other round - just like I could say I've seen more knocked to the dirt by the '06, all simply because I've seen more in TOTAL shot with this round. I really honestly believe that on any elk I've seen shot that at that exact time, on that exact critter with the exact shot with the exact bullet type there would've been no real difference in the result between any number of cartridges.



(edited to correct several spelling errors I'll blame on the aftereffect of sparkling wine gone flat...)

woodrow. your reasoning is very sound. Using that 270 wsm like you're talking about you won't be under gunned with it if and when you do get to hunt elk. The caliber is more than adequate plus the fact you will have shot it a bunch by the time you get to try for elk makes it just that much more suitable.
I've shot and seen shot lots of elk. Most elk in mountain habitat will be lucky to weigh over 700 lbs. The occasional bull in complete prime before the rut would be the exception, and those guys are pretty seldom seen during hunting season or there wouldn't be many to be seen at all. I'ld guess there are way more spikes,cows and 5 pts killed everyyear than the giant 6x's the magazines and TV shows portray.

Woodrow--

I got in this late, but have a few observations to make, from the perspective of someone who has actually shot some relatively big animals with the .270 WSM, and shot a whole lot with the regular .270. I also have a lot of experience with the .338 Winchester Magnum, both in North America and Africa, as well as various other "medium bores," and middle or the road rounds like the .30-06 and various .300 magnums.

With the 140 Fail Safe factory load it is very rare to recover a bullet from any animal shot with the .270 WSM. Generally it has to be a angling or full-length shot to recover the expanded bullet, even on elk. The 140 Barnes X acts very similarly. About the only way you'll recover either on a broadside shot is if you hit the heaviest part of both shoulders, in which case the elk (or whatever) is dead anyway. I have seen a 140 X break both shoulders of a medium-sized bull and zing off across the countryside.

My experience with the Fail Safe, X and the very similar-acting Trophy Bonded Bear Claw has resulted in far more good blood trails with .25-7mm caliber bullets than with heavier, fatter Nosler Partitions. You have to go up to the 200-grain .30 Nosler to get consistent pass-through, and even then the blood trails doesn't generally match that from a .270 or 7mm Fail Safe or X.

I have lived in Montana all my life and done quite a bit of elk hunting and some elk guiding. While a .338 can indeed give you a few extra angles to shoot from, I have seen an awful lot of elk and moose dropped very quickly with .270's. In fact, I have yet to see one go more than 75 yards, and have never seen one lost. There was some good shooting involved, obviously, and good bullets, but both those factors are necessary for elk hunting, at least in the long run.

The conclusion I've come to over the years is that the .270 bore's bad rep on elk is mostly the result of bad bullets and bad shooting. There have been a lot of marginal .270 bullets shot into elk, by a lot of excited shooters. There have also been a lot of marginal .30 and .338 bullets put into elk, many in the wrong places. In the first case the .270 gets the blame, in the second case elk are regarded as extremely tough.

I wouldn't hesitate to go elk hunting with a .270 WSM using Fail Safe or Barnes X or Trophy Bonded bullets, whether as a native meat hunter or "outstate" trophy hunter. In fact, it wouldn't matter if the cartridge was the plain old .270 Winchester. As my friend Layne Simpson once put it, "If you can shoot, the .270 is an elk cartridge. If you can't, it ain't." Wish I had said that!

MD

MD,

I just read an article that Layne wrote in the latest Petersons Hunting, where he was on a Dall sheep hunt.

He was using a 280 with an unspecified "140 grain softpoint". After busting his ass climbing mtns. for SEVEN days he gets a shot at a trophy ram, which subsequently needed a followup. Evidently, his first shot never penetrated past the front shoulder bone. Your classic non-premium bullet failure.

He kicked himself in the backside for not choosing the right bullet for the job.

It really drives home the point, which you just made, that besides shot placement, bullet construction can make or break any given cartridges performance.

BTW, by the tone of the article, I don't think ole Layne enjoyed his stroll into the mountains for seven straight days !!!

Tony.

Absolutly...for me the 270 Win has been a solid performer.Coyotes, Deer, Antelope, Big Horn Sheep, Black Bear, Elk...all one shot kills, except the Antelope where operator error was the problem... not the caliber! With premium bullets the 270 WSM is to the 270Win what the 300 Win Mag is to the 30-06...extra insurance. It may not be necessary but if it will put your mind at ease, go for it. Remember that a 375H&H will work for hunting Trophy Mice, but only if you place your shots in the right place. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Personally, I would just stay with the 270 Win...use the money you would spend on the new rifle to finance your Elk hunt. Just my 2 coppers worth.

John,

I think you may have just made the closing argument on my decision between the '06 and the .270 for my 721 project. .270 it is.


John

Thank you all for the entertainment. This has been an amusing and enlightening thread, not quite hilarious and more a study in human nature than ballistics.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hicountry--

Layne confided to me about a month ago, while we were deer hunting in Iowa, that the bullet was a 140 Ballistic Tip. He estimated he's shot about 60 animals with Ballistic Tips before with no problem, but this one barely broke the skin before going kerblooey. Range wasn't very far or very close, and muzzle velocity was about what you'd expect from a .280, about 3000. That has been my experience with the "deer weight" Ballistic Tips, that while they work most of the time, sooner or later one will do something weird.

Layne is now 62, but he stays in shape and got in very good shape for the sheep hunt. But he did mention steep and rough countryt ain't as much fun as it used to be!

I have to agree about the wacky nature of Ballistic tips. I used them for years with great success. Complete failure on the shoulder of a Mule Deer has changed my mind however.

An outfitter and good friend of mine discussed this a few days ago. He had a client shoot a dandy Grizzly last spring with the 30-378 and 180 gr ballistic tips. The bear was shot head on and that ballistic tip came right apart (30-378 is another abomination IMO). Fortunately his lungs were damaged and he died. But... he is sure that if this Grizzly was shot in the shoulder or slightly angling toward or away he would have had a nasty situation on his hands. I just keep wondering what is so wrong with the partition that people don't reach for that nosler instead of his annoying little brother.

Chuck

Chuck, I wonder if it's an accuracy issue. Generaly speaking, the BT is a very accurate bullet, easy to fine tune loads. If shooting anything under .338, I'd take a serious look at the Accubonds. For Elk, Moose, Bear, the partition has a proven track record, though I personaly like the partition golds for elk. The .338 BT's are supposed to be designed for big game (elk, moose),but in my case my .338 ultra shoots the PG's so well, I'll stick with em.

Al

I have used 140gr ballistic tips out of my 7mmstw's for over 20 head of deer antelope and sheep.I have taken 5 elk and 2 moose with 180gr ballistic tips out of my 300ultramags.I have never had a bullet failure to date and not one animal has covered 50 yards after being hit.

Why do I choose the ballistic tip over the partition?The simple answer is that partitions do not shoot well in my rifles.

In spite of the good performance that ballistic tips have given me I would not use them on a grizzly hunt.When hunting deer,moose or elk I can pick and choose my shots and the chance of being attacked is remote.Grizzly hunting however is a different situation and since I won't be shooting grizzly at long distance I will choose my bullet based on performance and not accuracy.At this point my choice would probably be the failsafe as they easily out penetrate even the partition and seem to expand very reliably at high velocity.

Now that nosler is releasing the new accubond in 140gr-7mm and 180gr-.308" I will be trying those bullets as soon as they become available as the idea of ballistic tip accuracy with partition performance is certainly worth trying.

regarding ballistic tips on grizzly: the worst combination I could imagine. lucky the bear is not writing about the nice dinner he had, albeit with a sore shoulder.

AJ300Mag--

Just out of curiousity, could you describe your experiences with Partition Gold vs. Partition? I have no axe to grind, just collecting information, since I've shot some of each myself.

Mule Deer

Chuck,

I think I would have to question an outfitters sanity for letting a client shoot a grizzly bear with a BT, especially out of a screamer like the 30/378.

I am serious, if I were the guide, I think that I would have told the hunter under no uncertain terms that I WOULD be shooting right after he did, no matter where he hit him.

That is a disaster waiting to happen.

Tony.

MD,

Well I guessed right as that was what I was thinking.

BTW, you wrote a post about this very kind of incident on the topic of BT's. You stated something like you use them long enough, sooner or later one will fail.

Fortunately for Layne, he got a follow up shot. What a way to end a seven day hunt that would have been had he not been able to finish the sheep off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

hicountry, having done that work I was thinking the same thing. The bigger question in my mind was did the hunter and outfitter never speak before the day he pitched up in camp?

I ask everyone of my hunters what guns they bring and what ammo, if they don't offer it or ask first. On the whole I think 99% of the hunters I take ask advise about ammo to me directly first.

There are ways for non-residents to hunt without a "real" guide in Alaska. You can hunt on native lands with a native guide. I know several folks who bought hunts like this over the years and the horror stories of the ability and hidious equipment was like a Saturday night Live show!

I don't think I ever laughed so hard in my life as I did hearing about these hunts from one of the hunters himself. It was a real comedy..........after it was over, not during the hunt.

It would not surprise me one bit that some of these guides would not even know what a 30/378 is or a ballistic tip. Just as an example I can't hold this back. They arrived at a fly in camp where they had small tents set up to hunt Griz as a base camp. As they flew in the hunter saw big orange and blue sheets blowing in the wind. He assumed they were for the pilot to see the camp. They landed the plane and were dropped off with their gear. NOBODY WAS THERE!

The pilot said the guides were probably around and would be coming now that they heard the plane. It was late Morning. The hunters decide to take a walk and look around. The big sheets they saw were the tents blowing in the wind ripped to shreds. They were only still there because they were hung up on some bushes. Many hours go by and they have no food or water. Still no guides and they are really beginning to worry. It's above freezing but it's now raining and cold.

Then finally a native guide walks into camp with a rolled up tent under his arm. He says he ran out of fuel in the 4 wheeler on the way back so he had to walk. The guy is soaking wet and has no rain gear. He hands them the tent to put up because he is shivering and worthless to do any work from being near dead from hypothermia. The other tents were worthless and one of the guys says where are the tent poles for this tent? The guide replies I could not find them we have to use the ones from the tents that blew away. The Hunters say they are different kinds of tents! Oh and by the way where are the sleeping bags and food. The reply was they will be coming tommorow the ATV which was to bring them today is stuck in a bog and they had to return for help to di it out. All this time there is a dog in the camp barking non-stop

The hunter Who set the trip up said he wanted to be flown out back to Anchorage call the plane on your radio. You guessed it "what radio". They have to spend the night without a tent or sleeping bags and no food in a 35 deg rain. The up side was the hunters had their stuff but that poor native guys had to sleep in one of those raggedy tents rolled around him all night with his wet dog.

The help actually showed up early in the morning with the remaining gear but still had no tent poles. That took another day. One guy actually shot a bear 7' he was happy. He shot it as it was walking towards the tent one day. The other fellow came home with a sore back, poor sleep, sick of canned beans, and a cold!

There were more detials that are just too long to go into and some comments not fit for a public forum like this. Anyhow I laughed so hard at this fellas story I nearly wet myself. Only Chevy Chase in Christmas Vacation was as funny as this guys story!