Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa How was the 24HR camfire hunt in ZIM for PAC ele & Buffalo

Packing up at 10 O'clock (Dark 6 to 6) wasn't the greatest feeling, but by them I was past mad and working on the more advanced stages of depression and disappointment. That unplanned move was about past disputed bills of course.

Money issues between landowner and outfitter, as well as between "partners," was the issue on mine too, it turned out.

Smart move getting philosophical. Mad gets me in trouble more often than not. I've been known to blow a fuse now and again. Doing so on another continent or in any situation where somebody else is writing the rules is just asking for trouble.

Deep in the heart of Mexico ain't the place to insist on your say. Neither is Zim at 10:00 pm!

Glad you got outta there!

If it makes you feel better, Air Canada lost my (and my wife's) baggage on our honeymoon. A week with one pair of undies and one t-shirt (washing them in the sink - best wife EVER!) can ruin a vacation too.

Sometimes the disasters are the most fun to talk about when you get down the road a few years.

I feel really bad for you guys on this hunt. I hunted with African Dream Safaris last year, and I would never hunt with them again. My dad and I hunted Leopard for 12 days and never saw a track. I did take a nice Sable, but I was in the wrong camp and I shot it on the way to zero in the rifles. Our trip was so messed up they offered us 2 or 3 days of free hunting if we came back. To make matters worse, my buffalo I shot had red mold on it when it arrived in the US. Good thing I have a good taxidermist. I think the best thing do, is to make sure no one evers hunts with African Dream Safaris again. The owner is Tim Schultz(sp). Good luck,

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences as well. Like MotorCity, I too hunted with African Dream Safaris last year and had a miserable, bad experience hunting there. Went for buff and couldn't find any decent bulls, problems with property owners/disputes, too many hunters in the same location, etc. We made do, like you have to when you're over there, but I would never hunt with or recommend anyone hunt with them. I felt like the hunt had been misrepresented to me at the time and let Mark know about it, but felt the open internet forums were not the place to handle this dispute. From all the other glowing reports here, I thought perhaps this was a one time experience and I was just the unlucky guy who got left holding the bag. I'm sorry you guys got caught up in this, though. No hunt in Africa is "cheap" and to have a miserable time while there is an experience I will never forget or wish to relive. It will be interesting to see what Mark has to say about this.
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I presume somebody have had the courtesy to inform the owners of African Dream Safari about this case. It would be only fair, and in everybody�s interest, to hear the story from both sides.

Nan,
Suit yourself. timphnetconnect.co.zw Personally I've already tried talking to Schlutz, and now prefer to tell the story to the rest of the world, and ZPHGA. Mark will, I'm sure, give his own view when he can.

Nan,
I was in Africa 2 weeks and saw Tim a total of 30 minutes. I talked to his wife on several occasions and Mark(Safariman)called Tim several times when I was there last year. That is why they offered me free days to come back. Unfortunately, Tim has very bad leases(if he leases) and other wise hunts property that has very little game. In my first 5 days of hunting we saw less then 10 Impala while hunting for Leopard. We could not find any bait to shoot. My PH told me he has never hunted property with so little game. He was shocked how skitish the game where. I said very little on the internet at the time, because I was affraid I would not get my game out of ZIM. I did tell anybody who PM me or called me about TIM.

Same here. I saw Tim Schultz twice while in Zim, each for about 15 minutes. His wife Bianca, who is co-owner and handles all the finances, got an ear full from me at the end of the hunt. We were hunting in an area where there was no cell service and no one had a satellite phone, so calls to Mark, Tim, or Bianca were not made and we did the best we could with what we had. After I had my say with Bianca, she made it seem as though Mark knew all of this and should have informed me prior to getting over to Africa. Whether this was the truth or not, I have no way of knowing. I will say that after talking with Bianca, my PH (who was present and heard everything I had to say) told me that he was very pleased that I spoke up and let her know about all the problems since they (Tim and Bianca) would not listen to him when he commented about conditions after previous hunts and thought he was just spinning yarns. I believe that African Dream Safaris knows full well this is the game that they are playing, but are able to find enough gullable hunters to not worry about it. It's also my opinion that one of the games (scams) they play is what others have mentioned here, i.e. get you over there and then try to get you to upgrade your hunt to get into more favorable hunting locations or to hunt the game they do have available rather than the game you intended or wanted to hunt. Those that are unwilling or unable to fork over the extra cash get stuck on the farms with no game. Just my humble opinion. By the way, I exchanged PM's with MotorCity just a week before I left for Africa and just after he had gotten back and he did inform me of the conditions he had encountered while there. At that point, it was really too late to do much about it and since it was my first trip to Africa I was overly optimistic and hoping I would have a different experience. Too bad I didn't listen and had to find out for myself.
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A most unfortunate story here folks. Right or wrong, perception is what counts or at least it's 90% of the discussion. All I can say for now is that I'm sorry this happened to you folks. Like all of you, I really can't afford to have a bad safari, so I tend to pay more, go less often and so far it's paid off for me. Like my dad once said, "it only costs twice as much to go first class." Again I feel bad for all concerned and look forward to the explanation. As a sidebar, those of you who hunted last year, can you repost photos of the game taken? thanks, jorge

Guys, My heart goes out to you. A bad hunt anywhere is a bad memory for life. I have had a couple, both for elk in Colorado. I agree with jorge, to have one in Africa would be an absolute disaster for me--I simply can't afford it.

I was fortunate that I met Marius Van Deventer of Africa Bushveld Safaris at the Harrisburg, Pa. hunting show two years ago, and booked a PG hunt with him on the Eastern Cape of RSA for my first trip in 2007. It was outstanding in every aspect, and reasonable in price. I took seven great animals, including two kudu and both black and a blue wildebeast and a gemsbok. I went again with a friend in 2008, and we had the same great hunt. Marius has been scruplousy honest and above board and has delivered 100% on everything he has represented. He is not the middleman. You will hunt with him or one of two other PHs that have worked together for years. They have a great facility and staff, and plenty of game.

If you are contemplating a PG safari, you really should check these folks out. I am going for Cape Buffalo in 2010, and it will be with Africa Bushveld Safaris. They deliver.

Geez, what can I say, I'm bummed for you guys. Sorry you all had such a rough go of it and got the short end of the stick. Hope refunds and ammends are forthcoming.

Contary to Shakiri's comments regarding keeping this stuff private, seems that if others with poor prior experiences with African Dream Safaris had publicly posted their stories and regrets, this would have been prevented. (Not that I'm pointing fingers at those who didn't, just that info on the good or bad is useful and public disclosure isn't all bad.)

Looking forward to reading Mark's response and comments.

JPK

I like sharpsguy have felt the sting of an elk hunt gone bad. This did help me understand what to look for and ask in the future.
I am sorry for the loss of a good experience in Africa that each failed to have. It is such a unique place and it is so hard to get back there. I treat each trip like it is my last trip (do we really know if we can go back?).
As far as keeping this offline in discussion, this situation is unique in that we were all solicited on this opportunity. So yes it needs to be discused. It has been kept civil and professional and that is all that can be asked.
We can each make up our minds how we feel on this subject.
One lesson to be learned is to check out all referances,research expections, and try and not get caught up in the emotion of the moment.
In this case I believe each hunter placed trust in a hunt and experience of Africa that was professionally prepared for them and enacted by a safari company in Zimbabwe.
This did not happen.

JPK

My point was to avoid the trial by internet thing (esp) whilst one party is away and unable to respond....... it could well be, and my guess is that none of it was his fault at all and the blame lies elsewhere.

The problem with doing it in public is that the world and his dog, many of whom don't know which way is up all get involved and raise temperatures needlessly with comments and opinions that have no bearing on anything. - Better, fairer and safer to wait till Mark is back and then sort it out in private and then the members involved can post the outcome if they so wish.

Anyway, just a personal opinion!

JPK,

On one hand, I agree that it would be nice if we could openly discuss bad hunts or problems so that everyone was aware of what went on. On the other hand, Shakari is correct in the fact that whenever these disagreements are brought forward, the poster inevitably gets raked over the coals for what they did, didn't do, or should have done, irrespective of what the outfitter did. In addition, all of the folks that have had previously successful hunts with the particular outfit mentioned come riding to the defense, whether or not they know any details. So...it usually is not in a person's best interest to share all of the gory details on these sites. I know you've seen this scenario play out on this and other sites previously.

In my own personal situation, when I got back to the US, I was so upset and mad that I was ready to come on here and blast away. However, Mark and his outfit, had (have) a good reputation and several very satisfied clients who frequent this board. I could not say definitively that I was not an exception to the many apparently satisfied clients who had previously hunted with them. Therefore, I chose to keep this a private matter. Unfortunately, none of my phone calls or letters to Mark were ever acknowledged by him, so I still do not have any additional information that would justify how my hunt was handled. I was not asking for a refund or any other compensation for a hunt gone bad, so the fact that there was no acknowledgement whatsoever of my hunt leads me to believe that money in hand is the only motivation.

Now that it has been a year since that hunt, enough time has gone by that I no longer harbor ill will towards anyone involved and hopefully can look at thing objectively. That is the only reason I feel I can come forward at this time, if for no other reason than to corroborate what others have said about hunting with African Dream Safaris.

As others and myself have said, I would like to hear from the other side to see if there is some way to justify carrying out a hunt like has been reported. It seems doubtful to me, but I haven't convicted anyone yet.

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Gents, any hope of posting some of last year's pictures from said hunt? I'd be interested to see the quality of animals taken, particularly the buffaloes. jorge

Here is a link with some pics.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1608684/page/0/fpart/1

Jorge,
As you know through PM's, I did not shoot a buffalo except for a young soft bossed bull who had been wounded by someone else and that the game scout asked me to shoot so as not to cause anyone any trouble down the road. Fortunately for me, my PH confirmed with him before I shot that this would not count as my trophy and that no trophy fee would be due. I have little doubt that if we had not asked this ahead of time that he would have tried to make us pay for it. I did shoot a decent impala and a steenbok, but spent most of my time driving from one place to the other looking for properties we could hunt. Here are the pictures. (I'm not sure why the image size on the impala pic is different?)









I will add that the camp/property where we were based did have buffalo, but the property was very small. The buff would come onto the property at night to water and then would head back across the boundary where we could not pursue them. We did chase several small herds around the property quite a bit, but never were able to see a hard bossed bull. I had let my PH know up front that I would not shoot anything but a hard bossed bull. I was not looking for a trophy book animal, but did want to be sure to shoot only a mature bull. Fortunately for me, my PH understood this and agreed with this philosophy. He and I both were very frustrated by the lack of mature bulls and were quite PO'd over the fact that the game scout/property manager was constantly urging us to just shoot any buffalo just so he could collect the trophy fee. We also found out during this hunt that this same property manager was letting other hunters from other safari companies onto the same property while we were out of camp to hunt for buffalo. We found this out only after discovering other hunters tracks, finding their truck, and then confronting the manager. I believe my PH would have shot the guy if he thought he wouldn't go to jail since we were really working our asses off to get a buff and then this guy was sabotaging us. There is much more of this sort of thing that I could relay, but this just gives a glimpse.
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Shakiri,

No doubt that reporting results of a hunt, good or bad, are best done after the fact - which in this and other cases might include a workout plan for a hunt gone wrong, or in the case of even a great hunt some trouble with paperwork or whatever at the end...

Here, the whole topic came up sideways, and not as an attack. And I think that, at least so far, no internet trail situation is causing undue emotions or whatever to take hold. In fact one of the guys who had the misreable experience has mentioned that he is awaiting Safarimans's return from vacation. Its pretty clear though that this hunt was FUBAR from the outset and ammends need to be made.

So far as libel and other issues you raise in your earlier post, truth is an affirmative and absolute defense to libel and no one should ever hesitate to post a truthful hunt report, even the worst. Reports, truthful reports, on poor hunts and disasters should be made regularly for all's benefit, including the booking agent or outfitter who avoids them or makes things as right as possible after the fact.

We do all need to keep in mind that hunting is hunting and not livestock buying, so not all hunts will be resounding successes from the trophy point of view, but that is very different from the reports given in this matter.

For an example of a hunt report where the results of the hunt from the perspective of the trophies taken are disapointing, and an issue or two during the hunt needed to be dealt with, but the hunt was still first rate and the outfitter, PH, etc, weren't improperly or without warrant skewered, take a look at my recent report from my very difficult and not all together successful report on my May elephant hunt. (EDIT: Which report went largely unnoticed here.)

JPK