Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa How was the 24HR camfire hunt in ZIM for PAC ele & Buffalo

I don't know anyone involved in this situation but it confirms a valuable lesson: I cannot "afford" a "bargain" hunt.

I've had excellent luck with the outfitted trips that I've been on and for that reason I use the same booking agent for everything. He's probably not the cheapest but he has a stable of repeat customers that he knows better than to let down.

As someone who is currently saving for my next African hunt (I've only been home from my last one a month) I truly feel bad that you guys didn't have the hunt that you expected.

Shakari,
I think when you hear the other side, it will be the same.
Test and myself hunted at 2 separate times with different PH's and both had the same problems. Then you have 3 separate people here all post the same problems. I think I see a trend.
Mark(safariman) was in camp with me the first few days in 2007. He had several heated discussions on the phone with Tim the owner and his crew. Mark, did his best and truly had our best interest in mind when trying to fix the problems. I would share a camp with Mark in a second. But, never with Tim Schultz or his company.
He will tell you we were in the wrong camp, as a matter of fact the camp had not been used in several years. No windows on the buildings, we ran out of fuel, no animals, short 1 PH, etc.
Again, I was offered 2 -3 days free hunting if I would come back.
I am only here to make sure no one else has a similar experience with African (Nightmare) Safaris.

Guys those looked like some nice trophies except the aformentioned "green buffalo".Anyhow I hope things get worked out and some recompense is in order. jorge

I agree with jorge if it looks to good you had better take a close look. Going first class does cost more but in the end you get what you have paid your money for. All safari's I have looked at don't ask for fee's up front but only if you are successful. I will be looking for comments by Mark and the safari operator on there point of view.

How can anyone be held accountable without consequences? I would be very disapointed if someone held out a negative opinion on a hunt. I am not an outfitter only a hunter, but I am very interested in hearing a hunters perspective. You never know someone's true character until things go really bad! I have been in business for 17 years and the customer is always right and their account of the incident is the only one that matters. I do however agree that there is two sides to every story and I am interested in hearing the other side. This case just seems to be very well documented and everyone involved seems to be very level headed. I only wish the negatives could have come to light sooner so that someones dream (safari) could have been saved.

Jorge,
Trophies taken on past hunts in a different area have little bearing on the treatment we were shown on this one. We booked a tented elephant/buffalo safari in the Omay, or lodge style in the Sengwe Buffalo Research area. We received a truck ride in a goat ranch in Matetsi, with no notice, no reason I can accept, no compensation and no permits for the primary quarry for most of the hunt. Amazingly, Schultz sees nothing wrong with that.
We may have felt like having a torch and pitchfork parade, but it wouldn't have done any good. I don't think this thread will help me either, but I'll participate as a warning to others.

FWIW,

Omay has some buff, but not a ton in my limited experience there. Too many people I think. Omay has its share and then some of problem elephants, again in my limited experience. I killed two PAC bulls in Omay on one hunt there.

Don't know much about Sengwe, except that I understand that it is small in size.

JPK

Guys

My point was that these trial by internet can so often get hysterical, esp when one party is absent from the debate although I have to say that hasn't happened here and I congratulate the forum for it's restraint!

One good point has been raised here in that you don't get what you don't pay for and it's a sad fact that many hunters don't appreciate that fact when they book a hunt. The reality is that African safaris are obscenely expensive but if you want quality you have to pay for it.

An example of this is I can offer a wide variety of hunt locations in Tanzania. All are pretty good but some only ever take half the quota and pay the Govt for all the quota..... which means that trophy fees for example on those animals taken are efectively doubled........ BUT the Leopards are like Lionesses, the Lions like something out of an old MGM movie and the Elephants look like something out of the old King Soloman's Mines movie....... they're a helluva price though!!

Mod70: Totally concur, I was just trying to remember the pictures as I distinctly remember a "green" buffalo, but Test explained his and I maybe confused it with a picture of a pretty crappy buffalo (plus another green one) that I think were shot by someone else. If a PH purposely allows a "green buff to be taken, I wouldn't shoot it and he should have his license pulled. Unless it's a wounded or sick one of course as was the case in Test's example.

I totally agree with you that your experience was a very bad one and needs to be addressed. In a customer service business like the Safari Industry, customer service & recommendations are the central key to success. jorge

What's really unfortunate about this is that there were apparantly very poor hunt reports to the outfitter a year ago about African Dream Safaris but bookings continued. I really feel bad for you guys. I've only been shafted on one hunt for a few grand which has to be absolute chicken scratch in comparison but I surely never forgot the experience.

Shakari,
The prices that we paid weren't far from average for Zimbabwe hunts, the deal sweeteners were such things as a second buffalo.
Tanzania is a place I want to hunt someday, perhaps sooner than later. If you were to sell me a hunt for MGM lions and King Soloman style elephants, only to announce after arrival that there was no quota available for either, I'd feel the same way as I do now.Would you do it? I didn't think so.

The "average" for a quality Buffalo Hunt in Zimbabwe at last year's rate should hover around 900/950 per day plus the trophy fee that I think was 2500 last year (it's 2750 now). That should be for no less than ten days in my view. Also, the areas offered should be thoroughly researched, exclusivity (or not) of the hunting camp and of course ALWAYS references. ALWAYS. And all tht I said on my previous post of course. Game quality...jorge

Well,


As Model 70 guy and others knew I have been away from the 'net for a couple of weeks. I want to start out by thanking Model 70 guy and others for delaying posting for a bit while I started to try to sort out what went wrong here. Later today or perhaps in a day or two I will have more info but for now I have stopped advertising here and elsewhere with respects to hunts in Africa. It is a possibility that I will not re-start again for some time, if at all, as it is my practice to only book hunts with operators whom I at least THINK that I know pretty well and with whom I have personally hunted.
Tim Schultz was an excellent and very highly regarded PH for a hunting operation that I used to book for but who came to provide poor service for my hunters and with whom I have not had much contact in a long time other than hello at SCI. A long story there that may come to light on another day..... For now, it seems to me that Tim Schultz MAY have bitten off a bit too much with starting his own safari company lately but I have to reserve judgement until I can get more input from him and others in Zim which I am seeking.

I have to agree that it was a poor practice to switch hunting areas on everyone at the last minute and not tell me or anyone else of the change in plans. I held on to everyone's deposits on this hunt until close to the time for the hunts to begin as a safety net in case things got too sticky in Zim and was assured as late as the end of May when the deposits were finally sent over that Sengwa ll in the Limpopo region was in fact the hunt destination. I am still hoping to hear why this was changed. Also, to not have the quota available for the animals hunted until late in the hunt is quite unnacceptable. I have asked Tim for an explanation of this and a partial refund of Mikes and other hunters monies paid and am still talking with him regarding these matters albiet quite slowly as he is in the field hunting a lot at the moment and communications there have always been hit or miss with about anybody. One of the challenges we face. Added to that my own trip abroad that I just returned from a few hours ago and I can only say that I am still working on this problem but quite agree that the trip went quite badly and I am truly sorry for the events that took place out of my control. I will be doing a cut and paste of the comments from the 24hrcf hunters here and putting them into an e-mail to Tim in a bit. For what it is worth, I do not think Tim intended to hurt anyone on this trip, just planned it poorly and failed to inform me and the other hunters of changes coming or anticipated. Motor City, Model 70 Guy and others were there last year when Tim and Bianca waxed glowingly about these great new areas that were to be hunted this year and I really anticipated wonderful reports of many animals taken and great fun when Mike and the others returned. As all monies were sent long ago and or given there in Zim at the time of the hunt I can do little else besides continue to try to get explanations and hopefully money from Tim and stop operations as to new hunters until, and if, this is all given to my satisfaction.

Very sincerely,

MARK

Although I wasn't there, it sounds to me like you may be passing the buck for not exercising the necessary due diligence. Have you considered offering refunds out of your own pocket? I'm surprised none of the hunters has consulted with a lawyer.

There are other outfitters who keep nearly all the funds in the USA, in escrow, until after the hunt, when everything is settled up. That's a good way to prevent things like this happening again.

"There are other outfitters who keep nearly all the funds in the USA, in escrow, until after the hunt, when everything is settled up."

I was always under the impression that was the primary reason to use a US based booking agent. I have to agree this sounds like a lot of CYA and excuses. At there very least Mark's commission should already be on it's way back to the hunters.
What really stumps me and maybe I totally missed the boat here but Mark is saying that he had great reports last year but that's surely not what I see Motor City saying about his hunt. It seems to me that this was a lot more than just a wee bit of "poor practice" or poor planning. It amazes me when things like this go go south that people with other wise stellar reputations resort to excuses and side stepping. Some one else summed it up very well when they said;
"As for refunds, there are some things that money can't fix. Some things can't be fixed at all"
However a refund of the commissions and a serious apology would probably go a long ways. I very much doubt any of them give a rats behind about hearing excuses about why they were sent to a different area to hunt and worse.
I'm sure many of us remember our drill instructors. Mine was a big mofo with a neck as big as a tree. When he yelled I swear the earth shook and when he yelled this little ditty that I've never forgotton you knew you were in seriously deep kim chee.

Excuses
Excuses
Excuses
Excuses build monuments to the incompetent

Guys,

Mark hasn't even had time to look into things yet and already he's being crucified by trial by internet by a jury who haven't any idea what happened, have only heard one side of the story (if that!) weren't there, possibly haven't even been to Africa, let alone Zimbabwe or that particular hunting area etc etc etc.

All this will do is cause a lot of bad feeling and hyteria on this forum for no reason.

Remember that comms are always slower in Africa in general than they are in the western world and especially difficult in Zimbabwe.

Why not do the forum in general and Ric in particular a big favour and simply STFU for now, and let the guy investigate things and then either come back here or deal directly with the parties involved and then let them come back to the forum if they feel so inclined..........

"simply STFU for now"

It's just a thought but you could always consider your own advice. Earlier you suggested we wait until Mark was back. Now he has responded so we do indeed have input from both sides. Unless a major refund is on the way I don't see any more excuses making a difference for why the hunters were treated this way. Mark even stated that aspects of this hunt were unacceptable. Period.
Trying to sweep a poor hunt under the table benefits no one but the outfitter.
I hope theese guys at the very least get the commission from the outfitter returned. That much is not out of Marks hands.

I believe at this point Mark has spoken and we have all had our say. We were allowed to comment on this as we were all solicited for the hunt. Now it is over and Mark has responded and really what else can we accomplish in a positive manner. It is started to travel in a strong direction. When we start using letters to state expressions for sayings that we use only to inflame because to actually type out the words sound too harsh. We are starting to go too far. Mark has said at least for now he is out of the Safari booking business. What happens between his clients and him at this point is really not our concern. It is up to them to work out anything if there is anything to work out.
Let us let this die down for now. The ball has been kicked out of bounds and the whistle has been blown.
Do you really want to keep kicking it?

To get everyone a good deal on this trip a lot of corners were cut in costs, including commisions. The idea was to enable everyone to have a great time at a good value and promote the great experiences that Africa has to offer, maybe inspring others to go. Didn't work out that way, obviously. I am still researching and trying to get solutions figured out. My pockets, in this business and on this trip in particular are not very deep. Some of this financial considerations, reductons in hunt fees) could have perhaps been handled in person at the end of the trip before the final payments were made but unfortuantly I could not be there this year and I know it can be difficult to argue financial points on the spot with your hunt operator right then and there at the end of a trip. I wasn't there so will not say what should have happened.

I appreciate Shakari and many others here who are allowing me a little time and space to try to sort out all that I can. Probably Closing up shop and not sending more hunters when I have sent many over the years is, I hope, enough of a negotiating lever to obtain some relief here, though I understand that the time is lost forever and I can do nothing about this. Lost to me may be a lot of investment of time, good will, advertising expenses, DVD production costs and time etc. But that is a risk we sometimes take in business and this thread is not about me. I am still seeking and waiting for Tim Schultz's reply to all of this. I cut and pasted many of the posts here and sent them to him. When he replies I will post his comments here. Lets give him an opprotunity to get back to all of us and hear his side as well as any offers he may or may not make to rectify the situation.

Again, many thanks to those who have spoken with good will regarding my character and hunting abilities and to those who are giving the VERY slow wheels of Africa, Zim in particular, a chance to turn. More to come.

BTW, I just updated my signature line and personal profile to reflect the changes going on.

On the topic of other hunts, I just had a hunter come back from a terrific Cape Buffalo with a bow hunt, and he loved it. His second hunt in as many years with Tim and myself. My last hunters of 2007 liked thier hunt and PH and overall experience so much they bought me a new GPS with sattelite link up etc. plus gave me a cash tip and are planning to go again. Very unuslal in this business. I have hunters from last year and this one who would be willing to be references if asked to do so. The 24hrcf trip was unusual and needs to be addressed, just updating and informing. Again, more to come when I have responses from Tim Schultz and other with whom I am consulting including members of the Zim proffesional hunters association.