Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles 222 vs. 223 - Accuracy Wise

I was over on the Bench Rest Central Forum and saw a 3 page thread (which is an unusually LONG thread for those guys!) that began as an inquiry into which cartridge folks thought was more "inherently accurate".
As often happens on these Ford vs. Chevy type issues the thread started to include personal attacks and bizzarro tangents.
I would like to know what cartridge the average Varmint reloader has obtained the best accuracy with when comparing similarly set up Rifles and scopes?
Currently I am shooting 6 Varmint Rifles in caliber 222 Remington and 9 Varminters in caliber 223 Remington. In addition I have probably owned and shot another 10 Rifles in these two calibers that have since "gone down the road".
In my experience (opinion) I feel the 222 Remington is capable of slightly better accuracy (short range accuracy at 100 and 200 yard distances).
I base this on extensive notations and range results I have obtained and stored in my Handloaders Log over the decades.
And I am so brash as to even "quantify" my opinion in the form of how much better the 222 Remington will shoot in comparable Rifle/scope set-ups than the 223 Remington!
Here goes - I feel the 222 Remington cartridge on average, will produce groups that are 5% smaller than what a comparable Rifle/scope rig will make when shooting the 223 Remington cartridge.
Having said that I must disclose that fairly recently I shot the smallest group I have ever made with an all factory stock Rifle - and that Rifle was chambered in caliber 223 Remington!
This "one of a kind" 5 shot 100 yard grouping measured .121".
This group was made with a Remington XR-100 in 223 Remington.
My 5% smaller grouping estimation for the 222 Remington vs. the 223 Remington admittedly is not much of an accuracy advantage or edge in the field, and certainly in the world of Varminting the 223's velocity edge may make it the preferred cartridge to use as an "all around" Varminter.
Still I am miffed that the fine folks at the Remington Arms Company have left the fine and accurate 222 Remington "out in the cold" these days!
Many other arms companies have let the 222 Remington slip through their bean counters cartridge lists.
I remember seeing Ruger #1-B's in 222 Remington and Winchester made some post 64 Model 70's in 222 Remington as well!
I still own a wonderfully accurate Sako Varminter in 222 Remington but I don't think they still produce a Varmint Rifle in 222 Remington.
Shame those losses!
Maybe I have answered my own concerns - the factory Rifles show me that the accuracy edge is so small for the 222 Remington and the performance edge is "big" enough for the 223 Remington that the factory folks have rationalization enough to opt for the 223 Remington chambering only, anymore?
Still, on my "bucket list" (before I die) is the gnawing want (need?) for a full blown custom Varminter in caliber 222 Remington!
I have a wonderfully accurate Remington 40X-BR in caliber 222 Remington. With 24 power scope it has made many groups (5 shots at 100 yards) in the high 1's and low 2's. This Rifle is a joy to shoot.
I'd be interested in others opinions one way or the other as to which cartridge is more accurate for them - the 222 Remington or the 223 Remington.
Long live the 222!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I believe that if both rifles were absolutely identical, the brass is perfect, and the bullets used were from the same lot, that the .222 would win. There is no way to make them identical though, because Lapua doesn't make brass for the .222. Some still shoot the .222. The recoil is zero, doesn't burn much powder so the barrel won't foul as much or heat up as fast. These are small differences, but everything in Benchrest is measured with a micrometer.
Under ideal conditions with no wind, it would be hard to tell the difference between the two. And even then, it would probably come down to the shooter.
The 22PPC will wear both of them out when it is windy.
The reputation for accuracy is why the .222 still has a following. I have two .223's and they are my favorite rifles. I am still kicking myself for not buying that Rem M788 in .222 when I was in the middle of my "magnum craze" 10 years ago.

I believe Mac McMillan still holds the 5 shot 100 yard record he set back in 1973 with a .222 @ .009" As the story goes, the group was closer to a perfect .000, but after being passed around the country for measurment and verification, it grew to .009" Not to shabby.

Better harmonics = better accuracy.

"In my experience (opinion) I feel the 222 Remington is capable of slightly better accuracy (short range accuracy at 100 and 200 yard distances)."

Agreed. It seems like a smaller cartridge of the same general capacity and shape will do slightly better at the range. Thus the .222 is slighly more accurate, on average, than the .223 and .222 Magnum, or the .308 vs. the 30-06.

But, it takes a LOT of shooting, with quite a few rifles, for that slight average difference to show. And even then it often seems to be hard to "prove" passed a general feeling, or opinon.

For factory rifles, shooting over the counter bullets from less than ideal benches, I think it would be impossible to prove that one cartridge is "inherently" more accurate than another. Even BR shooters can only see perhaps a .010" difference in 100 yard groups with the "more inherently accurate" 6mm PPC over the old .222. There are far too many other variables affecting accuracy with our factory varmint rifles than the cartridge!

Opinion: That makes the whole concept and argument of a more "accurate cartridge" for a common shooter firing a common rifle with common ammo seem a laughable illusion to me!

If you had to try to tell by the groups that were shot. You couldn't. Is one better than the other? Maybe and then again maybe not. Some interesting arguement about it though.

If you had to try to tell by the groups that were shot. You couldn't.
Is one better than the other? Maybe and then again maybe not. Some interesting arguement about it though.

Actually, Lapua does make brass for the .222 Rem. Maybe they don't export'em to the U.S.A., but I am sitting here looking at the cases I have.

I am in Sweden, and I can tell you that Lapua .222 Rem ammo is quite common in Sweden and Finland where this calibre is much more common than in North America. I am not sure if they sell empty cases -- I bought factory loads to get my cases.

This Lapua brass for the .222 is very precise -- I have weighed 50 of my cases at random, and also measured their runout on my RCBS case gauge. They are the most uniform cases of any brand or calibre that I have run into.

John

jpb, the Lapua brass for .222 is scarce here in the states. You might be able to get it here on special order, but I wouldn't count on it.
I use Lapua brass in .223, .243, 308, and 30BR, and find that there isn't even a close second in regards to quality. It's a little pricey, but there is none better.
I just wish they would bring back the .223 brass with the .062 flashole. Apparently, some people broke their decapping pins unaware of it, so they stopped importing it. If they still make it, they don't send it here.
Lapua has turned making brass into an art form, and I thank them for it.

FC363:

Ah, I see that you have likely done as I have and weighed & checked different brands for runout! If there is something better than Lapua I have not encountered in 30 years of reloading. By the way, I'm not that old, but I started at a tender age!

I haven't seen Lapua .223 or .222 cases with the small primer hole, but interestingly, I have some Norma .222 Rem cases with the tiny primer hole. I don't have enough of them to do a meaningful test of their accuracy compared to the Lapua, however, but it would be interesting to see if the small primer hole was more important for accuracy than the greater uniformity of the Lapua with respect to volume (=weight) and neck concentricity. Of course, having all three would be best, and I'll Lapua could deliver if anybody could!

I just bought 100 rounds of factory loaded .222 Rem loaded by Lapua with rather short blunt FMJ bullets (intended for grouse hunting: the short blunt bullets are designed to not tumble and tear up the meat). If these turn out to have the small primer holes I will post the info here.

Have you considered making .222 Rem from .223? I wonder if you could do so and keep everything concentric though...

John

I'm sure the triple deuce has the accuracy edge, by a slight margin. But then again, the 22 ppc seems to have beat out the 222 in the br game, when 22's are used.

As a practicle chambering with available guns, ammo, brass and loaded ammo, the 223 trounces the 222, and picks up a couple hundred fps in the process.

In the absolute accuracy game, the 222 has fallen out of favor to the 22 ppc and 22br.

Other than for nostalgia, I can't see building a 222 on an action using the .375" case head. 223 or 223AI is the name of the game.

I agree with all of the above.

The only reason I have a .222 Rem and not a .223 is that I was able to buy one of those tiny Sako rifles in mint condition for a very good price. Mine was made in 1964, and the machining, polish and blue is well beyond any production or semi-production rifle made today.

I considered reaming the .222 to .223, but I shot it first. The thing was so accurate that I did not want to mess with it at all! Since I'm a reloader, the cheaper surplus ammo in .223 is not a big advantage, and neither is a couple of hundred fps more.

John

I regret having hefted one of those sako triple deuces and returning it to the rack. It wasn't there the next time I visited the gunshop. And I wouldn't consider reaming out such a rifle to a .223, best to leave it as it is and enjoy it for what it is.

The other option not mentioned is the 221 f-ball. I got one for my daughter and it is a dandy little round.

Owning a 223 is like having a bunger

I have 2 Sako L461's in my safe and one Remington in 222. I won't make claims to any accuracy, one or the other, but most 222's I've seen will put 5 in a 1/2, sometimes regularly with any old bullet.

If pressure of the load is same/same your looking at 150 fps., MAX. Factory ammo, is of course lower pressure for the Deuce.

If looking at a 222 Mag or 224 Ruger, they'd do same/same too, maybe more as 223 AI.

I wish there was still room for all of them; its ironic the 221 was such a smash, when it doesn't do what a 222 does. A nice M7 varmint sure sounds good.

Rem. still makes the 798 in 222; I got the last of the 700 BDL's in Feb. 08. By March they were no more

Hawk1: Speaking of 221 Remington Fireball Rifles - my long time and wonderful friend Doc Mitchell (now deceased) of Puget Sound fame and notoriety owned a Remington "factory" Rifle in 221 Remington Fireball.
The Rifle came from Remingtons custom shop and was one of a small run of 40XB-KS single shots in caliber 221 Fireball!
I saw my friend shoot this Rifle on a couple of occassion and he allowed me to shoot it one day in the dead calm air at the Seattle Police Athetic Associations 100 yard range.
The mass of the Rifle and the tiny bullets coming out of that cartridge and that 27 1/4" barrel, made for some VERY impressive groups!
Remington handloaded Fireball brass and all!
I have been trying to obtain that Rifle from my friends estate but things have been on hold for about 4 years now!
I would LOVE to own that Rifle.
I slightly (not to strongly?) disagree with one of the above posters - I truly do THINK I can and I have noticed the slight edge in the 222's accuracy vs. that of similar 223's.
If that poster or any others feel differently I accept as valid evidence in my "courtroom" - their opinions.
I have a couple of sets of very similar Rifles and scopes - I have a Remington 700 Classic in 223 Remington with Leupold 4x12 scope and a Remington Classic in 222 Remington also scoped with a 4x12 Leupold. The 222 shoots slightly better and has for some time now.
I have a Remington 700 V in 222 Remington and a couple of Remington 700 VLS's in 223 Remington (one is the all stainless limited edition model and the other is the standard blued VLS) - the 700 V shoots slightly better than the two 223 VLS's that I compare it with.
And like one of the posters above mentions - this could all be a moot point as EVERYONE makes factory 223's anymore and there are very few factory Rifles still offered in 222 Remington.
I hope you enjoy that last of the Remington 700's in 222 Remington - I assume its a BDL Model 700?
Good for you.
My first Remington 700 Classic in 222 Remington shot so well for me that I bought another one (NIB) a few years later at a gunshow!
So I am pretty well fixed for 222's for the rest of my days.
Still I have that "want" for an all out accuracy intensive custom heavy barreled Varmint Rifle in caliber 222 Remington.
Maybe I ought to check the folks at Cooper Arms and see if they have a fancy stocked single shot Cooper Varminter in 222?

Jpb: Your quote "As a practical chambering with available guns, ammo, brass and loaded ammo, the 223 trounces the 222, and picks up a couple hundred fps in the process".

I think we all agree with you completely - I am sure that here in North America the Rifles in 223 Remington caliber outsell those in 222 Remington by 200 to 1 these days - maybe even 500 to 1?
But I am wondering about the accuracy and bemoaning the fact that most all the factories producing Rifles, have given in to slightly more velocity (223) over slightly more accurate (222) in their caliber selections.
Another notable 222 Remington Rifle I saw shoot once was a Rifle formerly owned by the renowned die and tool maker L.E. Wilson of Cashmere, Washington.
This Rifle was competing in an Unlimited Class Bench Rest Match near Tacoma, Washington.
The shooter was the second owner of this huge piece of machinery (Rifle!) that had been built completely (including the barrel!) by L.E. Wilson himself.
Anyway out of about 30 contestants in this Unlimited class the 222 was shooting against a field full of 6mm PPC's!
That Rifle (and that shooter) did VERY well at that match finishing in the upper half of the field! That match was held right around 1998 IIRC.
After the match was over I heard how many rounds had gone down that original barrel, it was astonishing to me that it still could shoot so well. It had been rechambered (re-throated/set back) a couple of times.
Maybe my loyalty to the fine 222 cartridge is based on little real life merit - I'm funny about loyalty though.
Long live the 222 Remington family of cartridges.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

All things being equal, the duce wins.
But, is it by enough margin to make a hill of beans? If you want to enter a benchrest competition where only the duce and the 223 are allowed, I'll go with the duce every time.
However, there are a WHOLE lot of VERY accurate 223's out there. I have two of them, along with two duces. The 223 adds distance to your hunting rifle over the duce; you can make longer kills with it. Add the 222 Rem Magnum to the discussion, and you have a real free for all. The 222 Rem Magnum is very accurate too.
Back in the early 1970's, before the 6 PPC came along, I shot centerfire benchrest competetively. My two rifles were, a duce Heavy Varmint rifle, and a 6x47 that I shot for light varmint and sporter matches. At that time, there were competitors shooting the 222 Rem Mag for their heavy Varmint rifle, because for the 200 yard matches, the Mag wasn't as affected by the wind as much as the duce was. I think the 222 Mag and the 223 are so close in accuracy, it isn't worth arguing over. I do like the longer neck of the 222 Mag case though.

Don

DMB: Your mention of the 222 Remington Magnum has me bemoaning ANOTHER cartridge that the fine folks at Remington Arms Corporation have "turned their bean counting backs on"!
I have two Varmint Rifles in caliber 222 Remington Magnum as of now and I kick myself every time I think of the splendidly accurate and very handsome Sako Varminter I sold many years ago that also was in caliber 222 Remington Magnum!
Oh how I wish I had not sold THAT Rifle!
I have had a little to do with the 223 Remington Ackley Improved and if the truth be known I would rather have a Varmint Rifle in 222 Remington Magnum than the 223 Remington Ackley Improved!
In the "222 Family Of Cartridges" I consider ONLY the 204 Ruger to be AHEAD of the 222 Remington Magnum in utility, usefullness, performance and all around Varminting appeal, these days!
The "triple deuce mag" is an absolutely splendid cartridge and again I bemoan the fact that Remington and just about no one else offers factory Rifles in it today.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy,

I recently made this post on another Forum where a guy was looking for 222 Mag brass, so it's written in the context of answering him. Some interesting things in it.

I recently went through the same problem you are facing, finding a source for 222 Rem Mag brass. I called all of the usual suspects, and NONE of them had any. But, I found that Nosler makes Custom Loaded 222 Rem Mag ammo exclusively for Midway. So, I called Midway and learned that this ammo is sold in boxes of 50 each, and has the Nosler 50 grain Ballistic Tip bullet up front. I ordered a box which cost IIRC $62. I have two Rem 722's chambered in 222 Rem Mag, and I took one of the two to the range with a 20x Scope on top to "shoot up this factory stuff" just to get the brass. I did my look thru the barrel and scope ritual to do a boresight job at a target 100 yards down range, then shot a bullet to see where it landed. I was lucky this time as the bullet hit the paper..LOL, about two inches from the bull at 11:00 oclock. I thought I'd confirm that by shooting another shot, and that bullet landed 1/4" from the other.. I said to myself, holy [bleep]; what's going on here? I decided to shoot a 5 shot group at that point of impact, and three of the 5 shots all went in the same hole!!! Another private holy [bleep]... The group mesured 1/2" C-T-C, which I learned later after retreiving the target.
I took a break, and decided to shoot another 5 shot group at a different point of aim, so I moved the cross wires to 12:00 over the bull. Guess what, another 1/2" group for 5 shots, all the while I'm muttering to myself that this can NOT be; factory ammo shooting this well???....
Well, a couple of days later, I took the second 222 mag to the range with the same 20x scope on top, and proceeded to shoot two more 5 shot groups with it and they also measued 1/2".
At that point in time, I realized that I had a winner with that ammo!! As if there was any question..LOL
I IMMEDIATELY called Midway and ordered two more 50 round boxes of that ammo. Then I proceeded to disassemble a round of the ammo to see what made it tick..LOL I figured out by comparison what powder they were using, but could not decide what primers they used, and that's ok as I used Federal Match Primers and they have always delivered good accuracy for me, so, I'll use them. The 50 grain Nosler BT's I have on hand.
So, GHD, my suggestion to you is buy some of that ammo and see how it shoots in your rifle. If it shoots as well as it does in my rifle, you have a winner too. The worst that can happen is you have some expensive brass after shooting the 50 rounds. But, I have a hunch it will shoot for you too.

I started out shooting BR with a 222 years ago. I bought and shot out many 40X 222 take off barrels on p. dogs and ground squirrels.

Later on, I re-chambered some of those same 222 barrels to a 223 with a minimum spec match chamber.

As long as you consider 100 yard being your only criteria, the 222 will have a slight edge...very slight. Now throw in more wind and/or consider 200 yd range, 223 will walk all over the 222.

Bottom line, in a 24" 222, the 52's can be shot at 3250 Max accurately. IN a 223, the 52's can be shot at 3550 with IMI brass and N-133.

Full blown custom 700's or 40X, with minimum spec match chambers; Hart barrels with zero or little freebore, bedded in a McMillen Hunter or Bencrest stock; 32-36x scope will get anyone to stand up and shout when they see the groups at 200 yards shot with these types of guns.

The 222's just fall apart with any kind of distances with wind. I went back to shooting a Shelin DGA with in 222 after many years. I was Trying to shoot tiny groups at 100 yards, I felt as if I were shooting a BB gun because it was so wind sensitive. I sold the gun to a friend who was a freek over 222's.

DMB: Thanks for sharing that correspondence with us.
Thats another Rifle I have had "slip through my fingers" that I wish I had held onto - a Remington 722 in 222 Remington Magnum!
I recently shot a group (5 shots at 100 yards) with my Remington 722 in 222 Remington that measured .626"! I have a Lyman 10 power Perma-Center scope on this old 722 and its just a joy to shoot.
In other words the old 722's often shot very well indeed - especially those in 22 calibers.
Your 222 Remington Magnum and my 222 Remington are still shooting pretty well after 55+ years, aren't they!
Long live Big Green.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Speaking of Big Green I was just talking to one of Remington's factory representatives yesterday (Saturday August 23rd) and he confirmed my inquiry/statement that I had heard the Remington 700 bolt action Rifle has now surpassed 8,500,000 (eight million five hundred thousand) units produced!
I am pretty sure that makes it the worlds most popular factory centerfire Rifle!

Keith: It takes a heap'o shootin to "shoot out a 222 barrel"!
In my initial post and postings on this thread I tried to make it clear that indeed the factory folks felt the increase in velocity of the 223 over the 222 was reason enough to foresake the 222!
I make no argument against the increased velocity thus flatter trajectory of the 223 and the slightly increased lethality factor that those attributes produce.
I just have experienced a noticeable accuracy advantage to the 222 Remington versus comparable Rifles in 223 Remington.
Your parable (story or opinion carrying a message) that "the 223 walks all over the 222" then must have a corollary (statement deduced from one already proven) that one must then use their 223 Rifles ONLY on windy days!
And of course no one would pass up a days shooting in calm conditions for any reason.
I live and Varmint Hunt IN wind country - the wind is BORN here in Montana and Wyoming and I have had countless wonderful days afield with my 222's!
Instead of saying 223's are more accurate on some days would it not be more correct to say that 223's can deal with distance and conditions better than the 222, BUT, the 222 is more accurate?
I went to the Sierra trajectory/wind deflection tables and using the 52 grain bullets at 3,500 FPS and at 3,200 FPS the wind deflection at 200 yards in a 10 MPH crosswind is 4.98" vs. 4.31" respectively - noticeable this, maybe, but only 3 bullet widths more deflection out at 200 yards is not "walking all over" category.
By the way in that same Sierra Manual it showed MAXIMUM recommended loads for the 222 Remington and the 223 Remington using the 52 grain bullets at 3,200 F.P.S. - for BOTH cartridges!
Let me check another Sierra manual - in this later manual they show maximum loads for the 223 at 3,400 F.P.S. and the 222 at the aforementioned 3,200 F.P.S.!
You see I have involved myself in this ballistic comparison "game" before where the proponent of one cartridge gives pressure sign and loose primer pocket loadings for his preferred cartridge and then soft pedals the antagonists cartridge - I will concede 200 F.P.S. advantage to the 223 "safely" with your chosen 52 grain projectile!
And that safe concession leads to a wind drift at 200 yards in a 10 M.P.H. wind of 4.50" vs 4.98" (0.48" difference) or two bullet widths difference/advantage to the 223!
Definitely not "walking all over" category this slight difference.
Using a wind drift comparison with the more often used 50 grain projectiles in the 223 and 222, again at listed safe MAXIMUM loads for each, the 10 MPH wind drift numbers at 200 yards are 4.21" vs 4.58" respectively (0.37" difference)!
I still like the 222 Remington for a lot of reasons not just the smaller powder charges, the longer barrel life and ease of finding accurate loadings but for nostalgic and baseless reasons.
I guess that makes me a 222 "freak"!
By the way my Vihtavouri Oy manual shows their FASTEST MAXIMUM loading for a 50 grain bullet (let alone your heavier 52 grain bullet!) to be 3,398 F.P.S. in the 223!
I would then dare say your 3,550 F.P.S. loading with the even heavier 52 grain bullet in the 223 to be well over MAXIMUM!
I suggest you not use it.
My latest Vihtavouri Oy does not show loadings for 52 grain bullets in the 223 but does give both 50 grain and 55 grain loading recommendations.
My latest Sierra Manual DOES show Vihtavourhi Oy N133 powder in their 52 grain bullet loading table for the 223 and they show a MAXIMUM loading at 3,400 F.P.S.!
Again it sounds like you are pushing things a bit.
Do you notice loose primer pockets after a few firings, hard bolt lift, short brass life, case head seperations, flattened primers or other pressure signs with your 3,550 F.P.S loading?
If you do I suggest you cut back to safer levels.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy